Rogue Archer Build Tweaking

[Kalendraf]

I assumed there was no houserule in use that allowed to flank with ranged weapons.

By the RAW that's not possible.

Can you explain this? I was under the impression that by the rules, so long as the opposite side of an opponent is threatened, then the opposite side gains flanking no matter the nature of their attack (melee or ranged). Been a while since I visited the flanking rules, so if there's been a change in 3.5, it could have easily slipped past me.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Nope. Flanking is and always has been (in 3.0 and 3.5) defined as something that can only be done with a melee weapon.

Can you explain this? I was under the impression that by the rules, so long as the opposite side of an opponent is threatened, then the opposite side gains flanking no matter the nature of their attack (melee or ranged). Been a while since I visited the flanking rules, so if there's been a change in 3.5, it could have easily slipped past me.

 

[morbiczer]

Can you explain this? I was under the impression that by the rules, so long as the opposite side of an opponent is threatened, then the opposite side gains flanking no matter the nature of their attack (melee or ranged). Been a while since I visited the flanking rules, so if there's been a change in 3.5, it could have easily slipped past me.

1. You can't flank anyone when using a ranged weapon, since ranged weapons (like a bow) don't threaten anyone. You can't take AoOs with ranged weapons for the same reason.

2. To be able to sneak attack someone due to flanking, you must do the flanking yourself. It is not enough that two of your buddies flank him. And since you can't flank with a ranged weapon...

It is really difficult to use ranged sneak attacks in combat after the first round, when no one is flat-footed anymore. I suggest putting as many ranks as possible into Use Magic Device and then getting a wand of Improved Invisibilty (or whatever this spell is called in 3.5). Or try to get some poison that paralyzes the oppponent.

 

[Kalendraf]

Thanks for the fast responses. I guess we've never been handling this correctly, ever since 3e then. And here I thought I knew the rules pretty well.

We all knew you couldn't "provide flanking" to another character with a ranged weapon, but it appeared that you could reap the benefit of "getting flanking" from an attacker positioned on the opposite side. We read, re-read, and continued to hunt thru the rules to find anything contrary, but all the rules wording seemed to allow this line of thinking:

A) When attacking with a melee weapon, you give a flanking bonus to attackers on the opposite side of the target.

B) You can't give the flanking bonus using ranged weapon.

C) However, ranged attacks can reap the benefits of flanking if a flanker is on the opposite side fo the target. See A.

We'd essentially broken Flanking into 2 parts, a flanking giver and a flanking receiver. The giver needed to use a melee weapon and threaten the opponent, while the receiver was any character on the opposite side of that target. The receiver got the +2 attack bonus and it didn't matter what type of weapon they used. "Having flanking" simply meant there was a melee foe threating the opposite side.

I just checked the 3.5 SRD, and the wording seems a little more clear now than I remember it being, though I can see how I easily overlooked it with just a casual read. Maybe the rules haven't changed, but the wording got a clean-up along the way?

In any event, my gaming groups are in for a bit of a wake-up. I don't like using houserules if I can help it, so I'll try to implement this correctly in our next sessions.

 

[Kalendraf]

In light of this (new to me) information regarding flanked sneak attacks not working on ranged weapons, I now have a very hard time advocating a rogue archer at all. Sneak attack is one of their key abilities, and in order to maximize it's potential with ranged weapons, the character will need some help in the way of things like invisibility, etc. Such spells or items may or may not be readily available. However, I never like having to rely upon magic items as a foundation for a character build - magic can become an Achilles heel for them in the instances where the items are unavailable (stolen, broken, lost, out of charges, anti-magic, etc) or easily overcome (dispel magic, invisibility purge, see invisible, etc).

The fighter-archer route going for weapon specialization seems like a superior version. But if you want to play a rogue, archery might not be your best choice.

Another option for rogues or rogue/fighters who want to stay back somewhat is the spiked chain. It has 10' reach and allows weapon finesse. And as a melee weapon, it can still qualify for sneak attack via flanking (unless I'm ignorant of some other ruling to the contrary). Unfortunately, it's an exotic weapon, so it takes another feat, but if you don't want to get quite as up close and personal with the targets, it's a decent weapon to use.

 

[Darklone]

One Rogue archer possibility... Arcane Trickster.

Your BAB will suxxor.... but you can cast Greater Invisibility by yourself. And Haste and Keen Edge and Greater Magic Weapon and Flame Arrow and .... Perhaps Heroism.

Though most ATs will be much more dangerous when using ray spells for sneak attacks.

 

[Junkheap]

To answer some of the replies:

I am using OOTBI from Complete warrior.

My main focus is bow, but there will always be a short sword ready when the opportunity rises for a sneak. I will take chances at that, but primarily i am going for maximum damage as possible on first round, then doing decent damage after that, but always have the possiblity to nail the opponent with a sneak attack.

Btw If my archer rogue does have a ring of blinking and or invisiblity, that makes my ranged attacks sneak within 30 feet possible right? Thats a requirement of sneak with range or can i attack with sneak from a further range? So if i get a ring of blinking i sneak (maybe) at within 30 feet every attack?

Also we dont have a rogue so i fill that position, not extremely well, but good enough for the time being. ALso we will have a crazy spike chain weilding freak, so it should be fun.

 

[Darklone]

Btw If my archer rogue does have a ring of blinking and or invisiblity, that makes my ranged attacks sneak within 30 feet possible right? Thats a requirement of sneak with range or can i attack with sneak from a further range? So if i get a ring of blinking i sneak (maybe) at within 30 feet every attack?

Ring of blinking: yes, every attack a sneak attack, but a 20% miss chance.
Ring of invis: Well, it's always a standard action to become invisible again... but if you are invisible and do a full attack action, ... ehem. I THINK IIRC the last official word was that only your first attack is a sneak attack. It has been debated extensively and there were some elder FAQ thingies that said everything... aw well. Don't know for sure.

 

[mikebr99]

In light of this (new to me) information regarding flanked sneak attacks not working on ranged weapons, I now have a very hard time advocating a rogue archer at all. Sneak attack is one of their key abilities, and in order to maximize it's potential with ranged weapons, the character will need some help in the way of things like invisibility, etc. Such spells or items may or may not be readily available. However, I never like having to rely upon magic items as a foundation for a character build - magic can become an Achilles heel for them in the instances where the items are unavailable (stolen, broken, lost, out of charges, anti-magic, etc) or easily overcome (dispel magic, invisibility purge, see invisible, etc).

Well, there's always Sniping!

Sure, you only get one attack per round... but if you are already hidden, the sniping mechanic will allow you to STAY hidden, and do sneak attack damage every round.

Mike

 

[Junkheap]

What do you mean by sniping? Attack once then hide check? or something? Other than that my main melee weapon i figure would be a short sword of subelty, that give me a +4 to attack while sneaking...think that would make a nice addition if i have to wade into melee.

Any enchaments for bow that you guys think would be usefull?