Rogue//Scout Gestalt help

[Omegaxicor]

I have started a gestalt campaign and one of the players is a Scout//Rogue, now the Scout gets Uncanny Dodge at 2nd Level but doesn't get Improved Uncanny Dodge, ever...the Rogue has to wait until 4th Level to get Uncanny Dodge but then gets Improved Uncanny Dodge at 8th Level.

Our DM isn't sure if by Gestalt rules we use the "Faster" progression of the scout,

1) Get Uncanny Dodge at 2nd Level and Improved at 8th Level
2) Get Uncanny Dodge at 2nd Level and not gain Improved ever

or we use the "Complete" progression of the Rogue and

3) Get Uncanny Dodge at 4th Level and Improved at 8th Level

I am inclined to say 1) but our DM is leaning to 3), we are both open to suggestions as to which is "Right"

 

[Visigani]

Get uncanny dodge at 2nd level and improved uncanny dodge at 4th.

Almost universally if you have uncanny dodge and you adopt a class that also has uncanny dodge you get improved uncanny dodge. Although you're not adopting another class the basic premise is the same... you got uncanny dodge again.

And it's not like uncanny dodge is crazy broken and the combination of scout/rogue gestalt borders on silliness... so let the kid have his cake.

 

[Visigani]

Get uncanny dodge at 2nd level and improved uncanny dodge at 4th.

Almost universally if you have uncanny dodge and you adopt a class that also has uncanny dodge you get improved uncanny dodge. Although you're not adopting another class the basic premise is the same... you got uncanny dodge again.

And it's not like uncanny dodge is crazy broken and the combination of scout/rogue gestalt borders on silliness... so let the kid have his cake.

 

[Omegaxicor]

I would be fine with that, I think the DM might need more persuasion than "he is crap give him it"

He thinks that if you multiclass you are technically higher than 4th when you get Uncanny dodge from both classes an therefore Gestalt would give him an ability too early

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Barbarian and Warblade get it at 5, one level earlier when you're gestalting two painfully similar classes (seriously, not to threadjack, but your friend should really reconsider his gestalt, he's going to be really pigeonholed...) isn't so crazy. Have him wait a level if the DM's that strict...though if he were strict he'd follow RAW and give it at 4. Look at any entry for Uncanny Dodge, it says if you already have it, you get IUD instead.

Now, if I were your friend, I'd try to find a nice alternate class feature or racial sub. level to swap that Rogue 4 UD for something else and just get IUD at 8. As opposed to getting nothing for that extra IUD at Rogue 8. But that's just me...

 

[Omegaxicor]

I will mention Disruptive Attack (Instead of UD 4th it is delayed until 8th but give up SA, against Undead and Constructs, for -5 AC) to him

I agree that he is limited but it is his choice and he wants to be a sneaky, archer with freedom of movement (the concept not the spell), I think the stacking Sneak Attack and Skirmish is what he wants

I suppose I will mention to the DM what it says but that applies to multiclassing, it is hard to go by RAW when the rules don't mention it but thanks for your help

 

[cjosephs1s]

Typically in a Gestalt Campaign (having played them for the last 5 years) you run with the progression of the classes and if abilities overlap you are just SOL .

Uncanny dodge is a little different though as sometimes it stacks with itself to get improved.

First read the uncanny dodge rules for rogue and see if it stacks to get improved. If not, sorry but they should wait till 8th level to pick it up from rogue. And then the one at 4th level is simply ignored as it won't stack with itself.

Either way the person is going to get improved, although it may not be till 8th level.

And you don't use one progression or the other...you actually you both at the same time and if abilities overlap you choose which is better. So in this case you would still follow the rogue progression and the scout progression as listed and just ignore things that overlap.

If this wasn't clear or you have questions about Gestalt, feel free to ask. Like I said we have been playing this style for the last 5 years and have come up against all kinds of "what if" scenarios. Granted you should always run it by your DM first as our campaign is not the same as yours but generally the rules for how to progress your levels are still the same.

Hope this helps

 

[Omegaxicor]

First read the uncanny dodge rules for rogue and see if it stacks to get improved. If not, sorry but they should wait till 8th level to pick it up from rogue. And then the one at 4th level is simply ignored as it won't stack with itself.

Yes it does say that if you have Uncanny dodge, like from the Barbarian, then you get improve

And you don't use one progression or the other...you actually use both at the same time and if abilities overlap you choose which is better.

so...you don't use one or the other you use the best of both...the best will be the one you use therefore you do use one progression? (You might have misunderstood my first post, or I have misunderstood you now)

Thanks for help cjosephs1s, I have ran a few Gestalt campaigns (they never seem to last very long but here's hoping this one does) but occasionally I come across a situation that I am not sure about. I wouldn't overrule my DM with what I learn here but my DM is man enough to admit when he doesn't know...

EDIT: cjosephs1s, Visigani and StreamOfTheSky I would assign each of you Exp for helping but it won't let me, sorry

 

[cjosephs1s]

Yes it does say that if you have Uncanny dodge, like from the Barbarian, then you get improve

so...you don't use one or the other you use the best of both...the best will be the one you use therefore you do use one progression? (You might have misunderstood my first post, or I have misunderstood you now)

Well then it looks like you would get improved at 4 level from the Rogue.

Well kinda. You probably have it correct but let me try to clarify more as I may have not explained it well the first time. Sometimes its hard for me to explain what is "common knowledge" to me.

Ok when I say you use both progressions you do actually use both progressions for each level that you take. So for level 1 you will look at their progressions and chose the best things about them. (our DM breaks it down by individual abilities so BAB is one thing, Saves is another, Feats, special abilities, HD, ect) So you would look at the Rogue and the Scout at the same time and base your progression for that level on which had the better overall BAB and Saves. Then which had the higher HD. Then you look at abilities. Lets say the rogue gets sneak attack and scout gets uncanny dodge. In this case you would get both sneak attack and uncanny dodge at this level. Not one or the other. BAB doesn't stack, Saves don't stack, HD don't stack. Feats do stack, Special abilities do stack unless otherwise stated in RAW somewhere (this includes spells so if you have two classes that cast cleric spells you simply follow both spell progressions at the same time effectively doubling your spells). You do this at each level and choose the better. ONe level it might be rogue, the next scout, the next rogue, ect. This stacking of special abilities and feats is what makes Gestalt such a powerful campaign. For your example of Rogue/scout at the end of your 20 level progression (if you don't multiclass out of either) you will end up with like 19d6 sneak attack/skirmish damage every round plus all the other cool stuff each class gives you.

 

[Omegaxicor]

Yes I guess we were both arguing the same point, yes if a Scout moves 10" and shoots (or melee's but he is an archer) a target who is denied their Attribute bonus to AC then they are hit by Sneak Attack and Skirmish for 10d6 and 5d6 respectively.

As for the Uncanny Dodge our DM reviewed the Evidence and chose Option 1, Levels 2/8, I disagree with him but he is the DM (and it isn't my character )