RSDancey replies to Goodman article (Forked Thread: Goodman rebuttal)

[thecasualoblivion]

Yeah, I know. Sometimes I just let myself blah blah. I am not that frustrated

Just think its a mistake to get to far ahead of things. This is isn't rocket science, and it isn't art. Its just D&D.

 

[xechnao]

Just think its a mistake to get to far ahead of things. This is isn't rocket science, and it isn't art. Its just D&D.

True dat. But then, sometimes something happens to click, some kind of a vision or something and if you pursue it you may find out you have made something awesome. Like the creators of good ol DnD.

 

[darjr]

I think there is to much invested in the idea of traditional computer rpgs and MMO's.

After all, the non MMO, non first/third person games are very successful as well. Remember bejeweled?

There is a ton of room for variant computer games. The Wii showed how much of a success could be built catering to non MMO group play. The kind of close proximity group play that table top gaming depends on.

I think there is a big future for tabletop play assisted or using a computer, table top play of a form not that much different than what goes on now. Even if you throw out the tactical maps and miniatures. I can imagine a multilayer computer game designed to be played by a group of people at the same table.

Throw in battle mats and miniatures and I almost already see it.

Some where I saw a monitor stand that let you flip a monitor so the glass was parallel to the table top. That and a lap top could go a long way to support the computer battle mat. Imagine a 24 or 30 inch flat panel being used on a table as a battle mat. I'm not even talking about multi touch tech yet.

I find pitching things as a battle of MMO vs. Table top as very myopic.

 

[Corinth]

Boardgames, consoles and MMOs all do the contemporary (and historical) D&D style of play--create so-called "heroes", butcher monsters, sweep and clear dungeons, collect loot and gear--better for the common man. It's immediate, tactile, convenient and accessable in a manner that TRPGs can't achieve without becoming one or more of them (and ceasing to be a TRPG).

Let them have it.

Tabletop RPGs are at their best when they focus upon the intangibles that those same media can't handle very well because it's neither tactile nor friendly to codification or inumeration. TRPGs that go heavy on investigation, on interpersonal interaction, on practical problem-solving, etc. are TRPGs that play to the strengths of the TRPG medium.

The future, therefore, is not with D&D- not as it's usually conceived, and certainly not as the current edition presents itself.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Boardgames, consoles and MMOs all do the contemporary (and historical) D&D style of play--create so-called "heroes", butcher monsters, sweep and clear dungeons, collect loot and gear--better for the common man. It's immediate, tactile, convenient and accessable in a manner that TRPGs can't achieve without becoming one or more of them (and ceasing to be a TRPG).

Let them have it.

Tabletop RPGs are at their best when they focus upon the intangibles that those same media can't handle very well because it's neither tactile nor friendly to codification or inumeration. TRPGs that go heavy on investigation, on interpersonal interaction, on practical problem-solving, etc. are TRPGs that play to the strengths of the TRPG medium.

The future, therefore, is not with D&D- not as it's usually conceived, and certainly not as the current edition presents itself.

Very interesting points. Old school D&D is particularly videogame-y if it's compared to crpgs such as Morrowind or Oblivion.

Sandbox style play. Impartial referee (in fact here a computer will always be better than a human). Exploration a significant part of play. Gamist, no roleplaying (in the sense of acting).

 

[wedgeski]

External visual culture is rampant in our own day, and will be on the increase. But it doesn't ever stand a chance of supplanting internal visual culture. Not as long as there are people who appreciate the difference. Everyone who ever read, and was captivated by, a book knows the difference. So don't let Ryan fool you into thinking that one day that difference will go away.

Despite the somewhat insulting tone of your post (it might not surprise you to learn that I've read a book or two in my day, and understand the power of the inner eye), I stand by what I said.

Books and roleplaying games exercise different imaginative muscles anyway. Roleplaying... putting yourself in a situation, empathising with those around you, employing in-character dialogue, shutting out your own meta-knowledge... these things are hard. They take practice, certainly a lot more practice than reading a good book, where the author uses words to entice you into a world of his own making. And like anything that's hard, something that's easier, more immediately gratifying, and at least as much fun, will win. If WoW can do it, then a future, much more immersive simulation which creates a roleplaying scenario on the fly, translates your actions into photo-realistic imagery, and allows you to share that environment with your friends, bloody well will do it as well.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I have a problem to understand "Neighborhood culture is breaking down", for example. Do kids not have a circle of friends anymore? My kids do. So do all of the kids they go to school with.

One thing that might have changed over the year is the number of children in a neighborhood. The advent of the pill changed the number of children people have a lot. And this results in less children that are around overall, and so less chances to make social contacts to kids of similar age.
But that's why kindergartens and schools can be so valuable, too. They bring all the kids together, even if they do not normally live close to each other, and eliminate that problem again.

Well, at least that's my working thesis. But I am not sure that this relates strongly to RPGs - as I said, kindergartens and schools ensure that children still have others of similar age to play with. That they don't necessarily have a close-knit neighborhood might not matter at all.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Tabletop RPGs are at their best when they focus upon the intangibles that those same media can't handle very well because it's neither tactile nor friendly to codification or inumeration. TRPGs that go heavy on investigation, on interpersonal interaction, on practical problem-solving, etc. are TRPGs that play to the strengths of the TRPG medium.

That is what makes TRPGs stand out from MMOs or CRPGs. But it's not everything. The trick is that TRPGs combine this with the things MMOs also do. It can't do them as well (since humans have to resolve the rules, not a dual core processor.) But that doesn't mean that part is irrelevant.

If you make that part to simple in an effort to attract new players, you will lose players that like it more complex. And they still don't want to play WoW.

I am one of those players. If you reduce my tactical and strategical possibilities to a simple coin toss, I am out of the game, no matter how much investigation you have to offer. It just wouldn't feel right to me. But if you take away all that ivnestigation, interpersonal interaction, problem-solving, world exploration and leave me with resetting dungeon instances and killingmesoftly, the Elven Druid and hotchick23, Human Paladin, I am out, too.

But you can't add all this stuff to [insert generic MMORPG] and expect hotchick23 to care for it, either.

You cannot please everyone all of the time. The real goal for every game is figuring out what its niche is and who to appeal to. You can try to go for compromises, and it might work some of the time. But don't be surprised if people ignore you, because they don't necessarily want to compromise some of their fun for a hypothetical other player they don't play with.

 

[xechnao]

If you make that part to simple in an effort to attract new players, you will lose players that like it more complex. And they still don't want to play WoW.

I am one of those players. If you reduce my tactical and strategical possibilities to a simple coin toss, I am out of the game, no matter how much investigation you have to offer. It just wouldn't feel right to me.

This is what I do not understand. Chess for example has relatively simple rules but the tactical and strategical possibilities are immense. A more complex game does not mean more options necessarily. It may mean more things to calculate and organize. As it sands 3e D&D and 4e suffer too much from this IMO. There is too much crunch that offers nothing of what you are saying in the end. Too much crunch just for the sake of it.

 

[xechnao]

Roleplaying... putting yourself in a situation, empathising with those around you, employing in-character dialogue, shutting out your own meta-knowledge... these things are hard. They take practice, certainly a lot more practice than reading a good book, where the author uses words to entice you into a world of his own making.

I disagree. A good roleplaying game should not require these tasks but naturally condition the players by its rules to roleplay their characters. For example in D&D and every other rpg you have actions you can choose and actions come with consequences. The more artificial these rules are the more effort you need to roleplay. The less artificial they are the more naturally your choices will resemble the choices one would make in the situation the game puts you into.