School Functions

[Kramodlog]

And that's it in a nutshell.

Not really. Public schools aren't supposed to turn in a profit, like a business. They are supposed to educate kids. The comparison is inane at best.

I'm reasonably confident teachers know how to teach.

I'm reasonably confident the janitors and lunch crew know how to do their jobs.

I'm not so confident the rest of the adults in the building know how to run an organization with 2500+ inmates.

Why? Teachers and janitors are adults too. Do you have some actual data, not just anecdotes, to support your truthiness?

 

[Janx]

Not really. Public schools aren't supposed to turn in a profit, like a business. They are supposed to educate kids. The comparison is inane at best.

Why? Teachers and janitors are adults too. Do you have some actual data, not just anecdotes, to support your truthiness?

this was a commentary thread, not a scientific journal. I don't need data. I have actual connections. Not sure why you're being so defensive on the topic.

I'm not bashing teachers. I'm not bashing schools. I'm bashing the people running the schools who continuously make bad decisions that nobody with business experience would have ever made.

And I never said they need to turn a profit.

I expect the people running the school to manage their funds correctly, actually employ proper management practices and communications and decision making like I experienced in the Fortune sub100-something I worked at.

A person with proper management experience and skills can set their mind to running the school and behaving professionally without compromising the teachers objective in actually teaching kids. If said professional were employed instead of the traditional teacher turned principal, we may see a reduction in stupid mismanagement because a proper manager knows how to conduct business properly.

So, it is my view that principals and superintendents need to spend a stint in the corporate world or take some business management classes on their way to getting the Masters in Education Administration. As my spouse worked as a teacher, my neighbor is a teacher, and I have at least six friends who are teachers, including one who just got her Masters so she can become a Principal, I have a reasonable set of anecdotal evidence for the school systems they work in that there is a management deficiency in a number of schools.

 

[Kramodlog]

this was a commentary thread, not a scientific journal. I don't need data. I have actual connections. Not sure why you're being so defensive on the topic.

It is not about being defensive, it is about fact vs. opinion. You certainly are entitled to your own, but at some point when someone holds something to be true and keeps hammering it, I'd like actual data to support their opinion. Someone's gut feeling is not convincing. Too often it is revealed to be baseless prejudice, opinions influenced by talking points rather than actual fact.

You have no obligation to furnish said data, but it certain would reinforce your position... if it more than truthiness.

 

[Nellisir]

I never asked anyone to go to my graduation ceremonies, and when possible (after high school), I didn't attend them myself. Closest thing was when I was testing for rank at the Dojo, and even then, I didn't ask anyone to show up for those (boring if you aren't participating).

I go, and I bring a book, and I read it. Depending on the event, I stop going after the first or second one - no more gymnastic showcases for me, thanks - at least not for a few years. I'm introverted and after twenty minutes in a large crowd, I will go away, come hell or high water, until I recover to stand another twenty. My wife understands it and doesn't push it. My immediate family attended my college graduation twenty years ago, but even I didn't attend my grad school graduation.

 

[Nellisir]

If there's a presentation of some kind, or an event or function, if someone doesn't have experience, they should at least talk to/bribe/consult with someone who does.

My brother is a seventh-grade science teacher and high school cross-country/track coach, so he deals with two different student bodies, at two different schools, pretty much daily. I think he organizes whatever functions they have. I'm sure he's got no budget, no time, and the most "consultation" he can do is talking to somebody's parent in the parking lot for ten minutes. So, while I agree with you in theory, in practice...it doesn't work. His wife is a high school chemistry teacher, head of her department, and chair/coordinator of some regional academic chemistry review thing, I think. They both just learn as they go.

 

[Janx]

It is not about being defensive, it is about fact vs. opinion. You certainly are entitled to your own, but at some point when someone holds something to be true and keeps hammering it, I'd like actual data to support their opinion. Someone's gut feeling is not convincing. Too often it is revealed to be baseless prejudice, opinions influenced by talking points rather than actual fact.

You have no obligation to furnish said data, but it certain would reinforce your position... if it more than truthiness.

Well, you got my professional opinion as a dude who specializes in solving problems listening to a bunch of different teachers over the years and hearing a lot of bad process and handling of business.

I of course don't have a whole sample set, but I smell a common thread.

I ain't keep hammering it, you keep insisting my point is about driving schools to the almighty dollar so I keep gotta clarifying that I be talking stupid principals not optimizing their workflow, spending money on bad presenters, and violating what those in the corporate world would consider standard HR policies.

Stop countering that I'm talking about screwing the public school system with corporate pointy haired bosses and money grubbers and I won't have nothing to say.

 

[Janx]

My brother is a seventh-grade science teacher and high school cross-country/track coach, so he deals with two different student bodies, at two different schools, pretty much daily. I think he organizes whatever functions they have. I'm sure he's got no budget, no time, and the most "consultation" he can do is talking to somebody's parent in the parking lot for ten minutes. So, while I agree with you in theory, in practice...it doesn't work. His wife is a high school chemistry teacher, head of her department, and chair/coordinator of some regional academic chemistry review thing, I think. They both just learn as they go.

That is the problem for them. They probably be just fine at teaching and coaching. But they get asked to to this very different stuff, and probably the only people with some sense of how to arrange is the music department, because as it turns out, thats what every music student effectively gets exposed to is how to arrange and put on an event.

Oddly enough, a lot of the better principals at managing schools that I've seen came up from the music department ranks. Skills learned in managing sections, and putting on events begins to equate command, leadership, prioritization and organizational skills.

 

[Nellisir]

That is the problem for them. They probably be just fine at teaching and coaching. But they get asked to to this very different stuff, and probably the only people with some sense of how to arrange is the music department, because as it turns out, thats what every music student effectively gets exposed to is how to arrange and put on an event.

I think my brother arranges meets, but that's something they learn as assistant coaches, and the other track coaches around. There's a decent amount of flexibility with cross-country meets, at least - you don't need a field or a lot of equipment.

They've both been doing this for awhile now, so while my sister-in-law still looks like a high schooler, they've got experience. I know my brother is wicked popular.

 

[Kramodlog]

Well, you got my professional opinion as a dude who specializes in solving problems listening to a bunch of different teachers over the years and hearing a lot of bad process and handling of business.

So anecdotes, not facts. Basically an uninformed opinion.

I of course don't have a whole sample set,

I know.

but I smell a common thread.

Have you consdered you have prejudices as opposed to facts?

I ain't keep hammering it,

Indeed you do. Your post is an excellent example of baseless opinion.

you keep insisting my point is about driving schools to the almighty dollar

No, it is about uninformed prejudices based on watching Fox News and the likes.

so I keep gotta clarifying

Sinking is more accurate.

that I be talking stupid principals not optimizing their workflow, spending money on bad presenters, and violating what those in the corporate world would consider standard HR policies.

Anecdote. Opinion. Again.

Stop countering that I'm talking about screwing the public school system with corporate pointy haired bosses and money grubbers and I won't have nothing to say.

What are you talking about?

 

[sabrinathecat]

So, at what point is my or someone else's personal experience shifted from the category of "uninformed" or "anecdotal" to "fact" and/or "evidence"?
Several times, people have said to me "Your opinion is uninformed" or "You're basing your opinion on too small a data sample." So, where's the dividing line? Sure, prejudices may filter my interpretation of experiences, but they, in turn, were formed from, guess what, previous experiences. So, if I (or anyone else) form opinions at all, wow, they are based on prejudices created by our experiences.
Same as absolutely everyone else. So, where is the dividing line?

Now, In my experience, based on the fact that my father had a doctorate and taught as a university professor, and my own misguided sojourn into attempting to teach, I believe it would be a good idea for any teacher to spend time in any other profession, just to give them a connection to the decisions and experiences of other people. (I also think it would be a good idea for would-be parents to have to spend some time working with and hopefully teaching children before they start breeding them.) Academic Professors in particular, generally need more exposure to "real life" and the types of decisions made by the 'average' person. (Put another way, they need to get a grip or be hit with a clue stick) The petty bickering and mindless one-up-manship--ug. Sorry, I don't enjoy arguing, and the notion of arguing about something that is truly academic and pretty much totally pointless... And yet, that was what these people thrived on.

Is this uninformed rambling? Is this a statistical anomaly? Is this too small a pool of data to be anything more than anecdotal? Maybe in a scientific or statistical sense, but for forming an opinion, no, it is pretty much the same data that everyone else works with when they form an opinion.