D&D 5E Serious gamers and new CR formula

[FormerlyHemlock]

All monsters with the same CR have the same XP -- you can confirm this based on the list of monsters by CR in the DM Basic Rules. However, that doesn't mean that two encounters based on the same XP total will have the same challenge, according to the system.

That's actually not quite true w/rt the Monster Manual. There are some monsters with anomalous XP listed for their CR: kraken and Empyrean are both CR 23 for example, but Empyrean is worth only 32,500 to the kraken's 50,000. This is probably a mistake.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I

I understand your point much better now. I agree that the kraken is not a universal threat the way a dragon/vampire/rakshasa/etc are. Neither is the Tarrasque, for that matter. They are terrifying in their element; the point of them is to put their element in the PCs way, or put something the PCs need or want in that element.

I still think they count as scary. I guess that's the only thing you've said that I strongly object to... A page or two ago I got the impression you were saying krakens just aren't scary, which I objected to.

Even a purely aquatic beastie like an aboleth is more threatening in the universal sense though. More assumed direct minions and such. A kraken isn't really BBEG material. It's more like a terrifying arrow in the BBEG's quiver.

It's still not all that terrifying though, because here's the thing about a monster with boundaries: the PCs never have to face it unprepared. If the kraken is restricted to water only, there is (probably) nothing stopping the PCs from conjuring up half a dozen water elementals (6000 gp and Planar Binding over the course of a day or so of prep time) and as many Reef Sharks as the druid/whomever can Conjure, which is enough meat with enough speed (in conjunction with the PCs' own actions during combat) to overcome the kraken's own meatsackness. It's not that I wouldn't find a kraken in my face scary--it's that I don't really find anything truly scary without the ability to seize the initiative and dictate pace. "Whoa, kraken in my face! I take 80 HP of damage. I'm down to 17 HP. I grab Eladriel and then Dimension Door us straight up and then Feather Fall us back down while we talk things through." That was alarming, sure, and I could have died--but it was not truly scary compared to scary things.

Dragons on the other hand are scary. At least, the dragons in my game are scary--standard MM dragons except they all have class levels in Dragon Sorcerer, which is thematic and also enhances their lethality and unpredictability by up to an order of magnitude, ironically without much affecting their CR (per DMG rules). But if I'm a PC and I think a dragon is out to get me, that keeps me up at nights in a way that a kraken never could. I have three real options: change my name and flee the country, hunt it down and kill it first, or die in my sleep, possibly tonight. All of those options stink.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

You say you disagree, but I'm not sure with whom you're disagreeing because you're fully aware that you're not disagreeing with me. We agree that krakens in aquatic settings are scary. Reread post #90:

Yes, absolutely. Sorry for the confusion - I am disagreeing with any support, even just perceived support through someone misinterpreting your posts, being given to the idea that judging a monster outside of that monster's intended context is valid and useful analysis.

 

[OB1]

I'm thinking a Kraken attacking your ship in the middle of the ocean would be quite frightening. Or making its way toward a chained up princess in the coastal city who believes sacrificing her will save the town.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I'm thinking a Kraken attacking your ship in the middle of the ocean would be quite frightening. Or making its way toward a chained up princess in the coastal city who believes sacrificing her will save the town.

Yeah, the whole grab-and-swallow thing synergizes really well with the giant bag of HP and the legendary action grapple/restrain thing to pick off a few PCs and leave with no real risk to the kraken. Lightning Storm as a legendary action sounds fun too. As a DM, I'd really enjoy using a kraken in the water to destroy the typical group of cocky, DPR nova-oriented PCs. "Let's see what you do when your Vow of Enmity + Smiting fails to kill the enemy in one round, suckers."

 

[CapnZapp]

But that's not how it works. If your rest is interrupted you have to start over.

Sadly, no.

If I could use any old weak encounter to deny the adventurers a long rest, that would... not completely solve the problem, but it would add wandering monsters to the toolbox.

However:

If the rest is interrupted by a
period of strenuous activity-at least 1 hour of walking,
fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activitythe
characters must begin the rest again to gain any
benefit from it.

Since all of your combats for an entire week will not add up to "1 hour of fighting", you can't use wandering monsters to interrupt long rests. (One hour represents six hundred combat rounds)

You either kill the party or they end up awash in xp enough to level up five times over that night.

 

[CapnZapp]

Personally, I'm totally averse to any sort of coded in encounters/rest rule.

Yeah, you're not alone.

But I can't help but think this is because your players unconsciously/voluntarily play along, fulfilling the 6-8 expectation by themselves.

That's not really a solution. That's just wishful thinking. The DMG should not get away with just dropping "oh by the way, make 6-8 encounters happen, I don't know how, but good luck".

To me, the number one mechanism for limiting rests is Wandering Monsters.

Apart from not really working (as demonstrated by the rest of the thread) this assumes a dungeon setting.

I have already identified dungeons as the only place where the 6-8 thing comes even close to working.

But what about wilderness adventures? hexcrawls? social intrigue?

Wizards most recent adventure contains (no spoilers) a wilderness trek that can take up to 36 days. The official guidelines is to roll for random encounters twice a day. There are a couple of set-piece encounters, but for perhaps 30 out of those 36 days you will end up with 0, 1 or 2 encounters daily, with absolutely no discussion on limiting long rests in between.

I can fix this. You can fix this. That is completely beside the point.

The point is: if you run D&D 5th Edition by the book, the 6-8 encounter recommendation is blown completely and utterly out of the water. There is absolutely nothing to ensure or even help the DM to make this happen.

My point isn't that you or I can't make it work. My point is that none of the actual solutions is in the DMG! Every good piece of advice has one thing in common: it's coming from you, my fellow DMs.

Not from the DMG. Not from the game itself.

You might not like hard-coding "two encounters per rest" minimums. But why isn't this discussed in the DMG?

I might not believe wandering monsters disrupt resting. But why isn't this discussed in the DMG?

Somebody else might suggest you can't long rest during long voyages, only at the beginning and at the end, forcing you to plot a course that stops at every available port/oasis/village. But why isn't this discussed in the DMG?

Why isn't this discussed in the DMG?

 

[CapnZapp]

One question rarely asked is

Why aren't your PCs going 6-8 encounters?

If it is because you don't have enough encounters in the adventure.. Add more.

If it is because the PCs burned all their resources.. Punish them with more encounters and get them to spread out their resources better. Casters are designed to last 6-8 encounters. If they are running out at 4 and say its too easy... Give them more encounters.

If it because the situation doesn't make sense with so many fights.. Then there is no need for more.

Please add more than merely "give them more encounters".

Since this is the very core of my point: saying it is easy, but where's the actual practical steps that make it happen.

And where's the analysis of the consequences of "moar encounters"?

Note: I'm not really asking you to to all this work, Minigiant, because my point is... all of it should already have been in the DMG!

G'day,
Zapp

 

[Minigiant]

The DMG tell you the XP per day.

For a 8th level, hand out 6000 XP per. That 6 mediums and 7 easy. 1 easy, 3 mediums, and 2 hards. Etc. Throw in exploration and social interaction XP and you're done.

Problem is many skipped that page of ignored it then say, it doesn't work. Then maybe try to fix it retroactively.

 

[BlueDrake]

There are a few things to keep in mind about long rests:

You can only have one per 24 period. That leaves 16 hours where the party cannot begin a long rest, although they can certainly try to hunker down and wait for 16 hours to pass. If your dungeon or wilderness is safe enough where this is commonplace and the party sees it as a viable strategy then you may want to add some more encounters or events to the area. They don't even need to be combat encounters: bad weather, animals raiding the food supply while the characters sleep, and so forth. A little imagination goes a long way. Camping for the night can become it's own adventure if done correctly.

If the party is trying to take a long rest is it fair to say they have probably burned up most or at least more than 50% of their resources? At this point getting hit with a random encounter or two is dangerous. If the party squanders all their resources in one big fight they are left vulnerable when resting. Your random encounters needn't be killer at this point to carry real danger.

Supplies also become an issue if your group is resting a lot. Rations are heavy (2 lbs for a day's worth if I remember correctly). That's 8 lbs of encumbrance per day for a group of 4. Surely you're not letting them buy rations from the monsters in the dungeon, are you?

The Survival skill can be used to hunt for food, but it takes time and while the Ranger is out hunting for food he/she is most likely alone. That leaves both the Ranger and the party vulnerable.

I'm not advocating punishing the party every time they make camp. I'm just trying to illustrate that there are many ways to put pressure on the group and to make resting a risky option.

There's also always the option of just talking to your players about resting. If they are complaining the game is too easy you could suggest they push themselves a bit harder.