Sorcerer, spellbook, scribe scroll

[irdeggman]

Let me see if I have this right -

Essentially you want to be able to use the found spellbook as an infinite scroll.

That is you want to be able to continuously make scrolls from the spells contained within without erasing them from the text.

This pretty much flies in the face of the 3.5 rules.

In 2nd ed you could cast a spell from a spellbook but the spell vanished just as if casting it from a scroll.

You might want to think about what the DM has planned for this item.

If he is not shy about dropping in scrolls when they are needed, surely he thought about why this spellbook is important - especially since none of the PCs can use it.

Perhaps it is important for a trade with an significant NPC (either you have met or will be meeting).

 

[coyote6]

You might want to think about what the DM has planned for this item.

If he is not shy about dropping in scrolls when they are needed, surely he thought about why this spellbook is important - especially since none of the PCs can use it.

Perhaps it is important for a trade with an significant NPC (either you have met or will be meeting).

I would suspect the only importance of the spellbook is that the PCs fought a wizard; wizards need a spellbook, so naturally when they searched his possessions, they found his spellbook.

It wouldn't be an infinite scroll, though -- he would still have to pay (XP & gp) to make the scrolls, and take a day, so unless the GM gives infinite gold, xp, and time, it's not infinite. (If the GM gives infinite gold, xp, & time, then the PCs already have infinite scrolls!)

It is a power upgrade, though, so your GM might not go for it. But you can always sell it for a decent chunk of change for 5th level characters. Spellbooks sell for 50 gp per page used, which means 50 gp per level of spell in the book (e.g., a book with four 5th level spells would sell for 1000 gp). If the wizard was sixth level, ; so would a book with five 4th level spells, or ten 2nd level, or 20 1st level, etc.). If the dead wizard was 6th level, it ought to go for about 1750 gp, assuming it contains the minimal number of spells for a 6th level wizard with a 16 Int.

 

[Nedz]

In a low magic world you should try to trade the book for some items - much more useful than cash.

 

[Lopke_Quasath]

OP again.

I can see the abuse angle, and more to the point, so did my GM. The suggestion was turned down.

Dingleberry- Good suggestion about using the spells in the spellbook like a scroll. Read once, with the intention of casting, and the spell goes off, erasing the text. I'll discuss that with my GM as well.

Good stuff, people. Thanks.

 

[Herzog]

Pitching in after the fact, but still wanted to add this:

What you are (were) trying to do was, essentially, no different than what a Wizard in your position would have been able to do anyway. Right?

I don't see how that could be seen as 'abuse'.

On the other hand, your DM probably dropped in the spellbook without worrying about the spells being used by a PC because there is no wizard in the party.
Which is probably why she turned down your proposal.

 

[FoxWander]

This may be too late to matter but I just found this thread so I'll throw in my 2 coppers anyway. (edit after writing- sorry for the long post. I guess this was a bit more than just 2 coppers. )

First off, as a DM I'd be ok with allowing a sorcerer with the scribe scroll feat to use it to make scrolls from a spellbook. It doesn't break the game but it does require some adjudication.

Regarding the spells being erased from the spellbook in the scribing process- that actually seems like exactly what should happen given the RAW for the opposite (see- copying into a spellbook from a scroll). So I agree with your DM about disallowing the "infinite scroll" effect irdeggman described above.

But, I also wouldn't allow directly using the spells from the book as scrolls- mainly because it opens the path for rampant abuse. That allows ANY spellbook to become a really cheap collection of scrolls AND one that can be created without the Scribe Scroll feat! A 9th level scroll (at minimum caster level) costs 3825 gp. It only cost 900 gp to write it into a spellbook. If the spellbook can be used as a scroll - yadda, yadda - rampant abuse. (or at least vast profit for any enterprising wizard. )

The only way I see to allow what your suggesting, without abuse, is to tweak the RAW for wizards copying spells (see the link above).
1-Decipher the spell
2-Study it for a day
3-Spellcraft check to successfully copy it
4-Copied spell disappears from source
5-Pay the normal gold and xp costs for creating a scroll

Alternatively, since point 4 above merely exchanges the spell written in a book for one written on a separate (but ready to cast) piece of paper, for flavor purposes one could simply say that the sorcerer is merely making annotations IN the spellbook to transform those spellbook pages into a read-and-cast form (a scroll). That way you get your spellbook of scrolls without breaking the game.

Now, using the modified spellbook method I just described, I could see there being some kind of discount to the normal cost of creating a scroll simply because the spellbook itself is already a partially magical writing due to the nature and ridiculous cost of spellbook ink. I would deduct the materials cost of the spellbook ink (ie- 1/3 the price, per crafting rules) directly from the materials cost for scribing. So creating a scroll directly from spellbook pages would at least cost less gold, but still have the XP cost- and 1st level scrolls would only cost XP! So there would be a benefit to that method, but it wouldn't be abusive.

 

[Ashtagon]

If the spellbook spells are 1st level, it would be worth considering taking a single level of wizard. That gives you all the class features you need to scribe those scrolls.

 

[Dandu]

If the spellbook spells are 1st level, it would be worth considering taking a single level of wizard. That gives you all the class features you need to scribe those scrolls.

Further delay of spell progression as a sorcerer is almost never a good idea unless the benefits are very good.

Which they do not seem to be in this case.

 

[irdeggman]

Alternatively, since point 4 above merely exchanges the spell written in a book for one written on a separate (but ready to cast) piece of paper, for flavor purposes one could simply say that the sorcerer is merely making annotations IN the spellbook to transform those spellbook pages into a read-and-cast form (a scroll). That way you get your spellbook of scrolls without breaking the game.

Now, using the modified spellbook method I just described, I could see there being some kind of discount to the normal cost of creating a scroll simply because the spellbook itself is already a partially magical writing due to the nature and ridiculous cost of spellbook ink. I would deduct the materials cost of the spellbook ink (ie- 1/3 the price, per crafting rules) directly from the materials cost for scribing. So creating a scroll directly from spellbook pages would at least cost less gold, but still have the XP cost- and 1st level scrolls would only cost XP! So there would be a benefit to that method, but it wouldn't be abusive.

Realizing of course that in order to scribe a scroll a caster must know it and the original point of this thread was to allow a sorcerer who didn't know the spell (due to the limit on spells known by the class) to cast a spell directly from a spellbook repeatedly.

Now anything that allows the sorcerer to bypass the restriction of his class on spells known (without a class trade off of some kind) is upping the power of the class.

 

[FoxWander]

Realizing of course that in order to scribe a scroll a caster must know it and the original point of this thread was to allow a sorcerer who didn't know the spell (due to the limit on spells known by the class) to cast a spell directly from a spellbook repeatedly.

Now anything that allows the sorcerer to bypass the restriction of his class on spells known (without a class trade off of some kind) is upping the power of the class.

Huh? What exactly are you trying to say here?

The original point of the thread was "Would it be game breaking if a sorcerer had the ability to scribe a scroll using a spell from a captured spellbook?" It wasn't until the second page of the discussion that trying to turn the spellbook into an infinitely copyable scroll or a big book of scrolls was brought up. I'm of the opinion that both of those uses are bad ideas (which is agreeing with you, I believe!?) open to much abuse.

But I think the original idea (in quotations above) could be allowed without breaking the game. Yes, allowing the sorcerer to scribe a spell he doesn't have on his 'known spells' list isn't allowed by the rules but, with a spellbook to use as a guide, I don't think it's unreasonable to allow- with some restrictions- given that sorcerers can already cast any sorcerer/wizard spell from a scroll regardless if they actually 'know' it or not.

Allowing spellbook pages to be cannibalized directly into scrolls for a slight gp savings was an idea that should be open to any class that could scribe arcane spells (or divine spells if they got hold of an archivist's prayer book)- IF that option is allowed in the first place. But I don't think that's an unreasonable idea either. Remember, I did suggest that it couldn't be done infinitely- it should definitely make the spell disappear from the spellbook when it is scribed into a scroll. Transforming it directly into a scroll was just an alternative idea I thought might be interesting.