spells you think are the wrong level

[JiffyPopTart]

I think that every Detect spell should be 0th level.

I think Ray of Enfeeblement should allow a save but hit automatically.

I think Sleep needs to scale with levels, all the other 1st level spells seem to.

I think the summon monster charts need to all be moved down one level, and a new 9th level one created. Alternately they need to change the duration to Concentration.

Erase, Endure Elements, and Floating Disc should be 0th.

Charm Person should be 2nd+.

Daze Monster, Continual Flame, Phantom Trap, Whispering Wind should be 1st.

Invisibility should always be treated like Greater Invisibility, but be 1rnd/level.

This is just my thoughts browsing through 0-2nd level mage spells.

Lastly...no spell (Fire Trap for example) should scale up at Xd6 damage +1/level. Its too slow and pointless.

DS

 

[MerricB]

No. You go from 4d8+7 (avg: 25. Max is worthless!) to 110 HP. The way most of the cure spells scale, it takes forever for a caster to max them out; that 4th level spell doesn't max out until level 20 - Heal actually maxes out faster! So most of that potential healing is illusory.

The issue there is that the upper two cure spells aren't very good, more than Heal's overpoweredness. And that the ways spells scale up is often stupid, such as the damaging spells whose only benefit for being higher level is a higher caster level cap. Polar Ray, Cone of Cold, etc. Or spells that quickly become useless. Many of the Spell Compendium spells seem to have included useful secondary properties with their damage, or seem to consider progression more carefully.

Cure spells are an odd beast, made even stranger by that feat of feats, Augment Healing (CD).

My RSoP used that feat, and at 11th level, my choices were:

Cure Light Wounds: 1d8+7 (avg 11.5)
Cure Moderate Wounds: 2d8+14 (avg 23)
Cure Serious Wounds: 3d8+18 (avg 31.5)
Cure Critical Wounds: 4d8+20 (avg 38)
Mass Cure Light: weirdness
Heal: 110 hp

I think Heal is correct; it's the lower-level spells that need adjusting. Perhaps, 1d8, 3d8, 5d8, 7d8?

Cheers!

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Cure spells are an odd beast, made even stranger by that feat of feats, Augment Healing (CD).

My RSoP used that feat, and at 11th level, my choices were:

Cure Light Wounds: 1d8+7 (avg 11.5)
Cure Moderate Wounds: 2d8+14 (avg 23)
Cure Serious Wounds: 3d8+18 (avg 31.5)
Cure Critical Wounds: 4d8+20 (avg 38)
Mass Cure Light: weirdness
Heal: 110 hp

I think Heal is correct; it's the lower-level spells that need adjusting. Perhaps, 1d8, 3d8, 5d8, 7d8?

Cheers!

Or, make them all fixed:

for a cleric..
1. Cure Light Wounds: heals 2hp + 2/lvl cap at 5th (12)
2. Cure Moderate Wounds: heals 4hp + 3/lvl cap at 8th (28)
3. Cure Serious Wounds: heals 4/lvl cap at 10th (40)
4. Cure Critical Wounds: heals 5/lvl cap at 12th (60)
5. Lesser Heal: heals 6/lvl cap at 15th (90) <gap filler spell, made it up on the fly>
6. Heal: heals 10/lvl cap at 15th (150)
5. Mass Cure Light Wounds: heals 2/lvl per target cap at 15th (30)
6. Mass Cure Moderate Wounds: heals 10hp +2/lvl per target cap at 18th (46)
7. Mass Cure Serious Wounds: heals 3hp/lvl per target cap at 22nd (66)
8. Mass Cure Critical Wounds: heals 4/lvl per target cap at 25th (100)
9. Mass Heal: heals 10/lvl per target cap at 25th (250)

I did these of the top of my head, with the g/f yappin' at me on the phone, but I think this looks balanced..

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Ice storm. Should be lower level or last longer.

5d6 area for a 4th level wizard evocation is poor, poor, poor. Fireball for 7-10d6 is far preferable and it comes with a lower level slot.

Big tall area = no big deal. Environmental conditions for 1 round = no big deal.

Fine for a druid spell, not for an evoker.

Ah, but Ice Storm is nice in that it bypasses SR, has two damage types, which almost always guarantees some effects, and can halt visibility and movement as a mage escape spell.

It's all about how you use it, but I've used Ice Storm to much better effect than Fireball. Plus what other evocation spells are at 4th level that do reasonable area damage?

 

[Particle_Man]

Well, then PC classes would need a considerable HP bump as well. You can kill many mages with one or two evocations of spell levels lower than their own highest.

I agree that mages have too low HD. I also agree with the "remove the damage caps" argument. Then the evoker has a better chance to be useful.

 

[Nyeshet]

Sigh. There are too many spells to list. When all is said and done probably a quarter of the spells in the core PHB and perhaps as many as a third to half of the spells from other WotC books are arguably the wrong level.

A lot of it, however, has to do with style of GM'ing and playing.

I, personally, think that 'raise dead' style spells and the teleportation school should all be moved up a level or two. If that removes them from typical casting level then perhaps they were too powerful for typical casting levels.

Another spell that comes to mind is Protection from Evil. There was a thread a while back trying to determine a fair cost for an item that made use of this spell with command word more or less at will (ie: just a step below continuous). It was eventually decided that for what it granted it should cost the same as a third or fourth level spell - using the cost criteria for making such an item. This suggested, in fact, that the spell itself should have been third or fourth level. (I and some others thought third level, while still others thought fourth level.)

The entire chain of alignment spells (protection from, magic circle against, shield of, word of, aura of, etc) should be moved up a couple levels, likely.

To these (teleportation spells, raise dead spells, most alignment based spells, etc) we could likely add a variety of individual spells that could - and perhaps should - be bumped up a level or two (or even three in rare instances).

Invisibility and Silence, as some have mentioned, can be remarkably powerful. Perhaps Invis spells should be bumped a single level, while Silence should be split in two - a single target (creature or object) spell requiring touch at the current level (thus limiting its usefulness against other casters while allowing for usefulness in sneaking, etc) and another spell a couple levels higher that is the ranged area effect we are familiar with.

I imagine that raw damage spells might be the easiest to assign to a level, so it shouldn't be too hard to determine whether they are fine or should be upped or downded a level.

Creation is based mostly upon worth and how long they last, I would think.

The problem, I think, likely will come with dangerous conditions that do not deal straight damage - such as stunning, nausia, blindness, encumberment (Is there a spell that encumbers a N/PC as if carrying twice or however much more weight than they are carrying?), aging, dazement, bedazzlement, sleepiness, etc. In most instances we must consider not only the usefulness of the effect, but also the probable save and DC - and who is most likely to be affected by it. A 'dominate' effect is unlikely to affect a wizard, while a 'dizziness' effect (presuming a Refl save) is unlikely to deter a rogue. And poisons, of course, are less likely to slow a fighter.

So, in the end, spells are more likely to need moving up or down a level if they involve a Condition or a Utility effect rather than straight damage - which is more readily determined on a level by level basis.

 

[boolean]

It can really only be removed with dispel magic at low levels (since it isn't ability damage, lesser restoration and other spells won't remove it).

"Lesser restoration dispels any magical effects reducing on of the subject's ability scores (such as ray of enfeeblement)..."

The three round casting time means it isn't very useful, but it does work.

 

[boolean]

I think that every Detect spell should be 0th level.

You think Detect Thoughts should be 0th level?

 

[Glyfair]

You think Detect Thoughts should be 0th level?

Sure, but it should only detect thoughts ala Detect Magic. Identify Thoughts and Analyze Thoughts should be higher level spells.

 

[boolean]

Don't get my started about clerics with the Cold domain, Divine Metamagic, Split Ray and Domain Spontaneity with this spell

You weren't letting them use both DMM and DS in the same round, were you?

Regardless, you may activate only one divine feat (or use the ability to turn or rebuke undead once) per round, though overlapping durations may allow you the benefits of more than one divine feat at a time.