Stats and Balance

[zarquin]

I've been doing alot of thinking about stats and what having one additional point in a stat means from a game effects standpoint.
So let us begin by seeing what someone with a 100 in a given stat can do, and what the stat does at this level.

Str 100:
Gives a +50 to strength based attack and damage rolls
Gives a +50 to strength based skills
Multiplies base damage by 8 (so instead of doing 1d6, they now do 8d6 as a medium unarmed fighter, or maybe 16d10 with a sufficient weapon from 2d10)
Can lift as a max heavy load: 13107 tonnes., as a medium bidpedal creature

Dex 100:
Gives +50 to AC assuming that armor has a max dex modifier of +50 or higher
Gives +50 to dex based attack rolls
Gives +50 to dex based skills
Gives +50 to initiative

Con 100:
Gives +50 to Con based skills
Gives +50 Hp per HitDice

Int,Wis,Cha 100:
Gives +50 to respective based skills
Gives the caster bonus spells per day of up to 45th lvl
Note: a 44th lvl maximized, 19-times empowered fireball does 46,080 damage

What it means for a stat to be 2 point higher:
All abilities will give a +1 to all respective skills, and +1 to attribute checks
Str:
Can lift ~132% of what you could previously lift
Damage increases to ~105% of previous base physical damage
+1 to damage and attack rolls using strength

Dex:
+1 AC, Initiative, and dex based attack rolls

Con:
+1 HP per HD

Int,Wis,Cha:
Get a bonus spell of the level above what you previously got a bonus spell of.
Note: a spell 1 level higher does about 119% of the damage of the previous level. (based of a doubling in damage every 4 spell levels)

Looking at this says that damage scales VASTLY faster than hp and AC, and that Con and Dex might be slightly underpowered. Since I can't look at Ascention to see how it's handled, this might not apply, dunno. So possibly an increase in dex should also increase movement speed of something of the sort? Instead of a flat +1 per HD per 2 points of Con, say that every 30 points of con doubles your HP or something like that?

 

[Pssthpok]

I've been doing alot of thinking about stats and what having one additional point in a stat means from a game effects standpoint. <snip>

I'm not sure the problem here is worse than the cure. Ability modifiers work in a uniform way because it keeps bookkeeping to a minimum and makes ability scores ostensibly equal in power, though for some classes some scores won't mean as much (Str for an archetypal wizard, for instance, or Cha for an archetypal fighter).

I don't think carrying capacity really comes into play until you start using special (heavy) material for weapons, material that increases base damage so significantly that it becomes a major facet of Strength - being able to wield more damage in addition to having a higher modifier. That being said, CC might be easily ignored by most classes, and so would reduce its overall ostensible worth (since fewer classes will give a crap 9 times out of 10).

Doubling hit points every 30 points to Con also seems so pedantic it's not funny. Think about it this way: d4 HD is an average of 2.5 (round down for simplicity's sake); so for a wizard, they're doubling (on average) their hit points every 4 points to Con; a rogue every 6, etc. So a +30 to Con would more than seven-fold an average wizard's hit points (from a Con 10), but only x3 a barbarian's hit points. Why obfuscate the system when the simple [(x-10)/2] works well-enough? If you're really hankering for a change, try the Damage/Injury Save variant from Mutants & Masterminds and UnA or even Vitality/Wounds.

Thing is, I think you're trying too hard to reduce things to decimals. A 4th-level spell doesn't do 119% damage of a 3rd-level spell; that's just you forcing mathematic conjecture on the situation. I'm sure you can prove it, but it's just not always gonna be the dip-stick you want to use. Black tentacles, for instance, can be far more effective than a x1.19 Fireball. Most of what you're talking about being concrete is really subjective to the roll of a die, and in a game where you roll dice to determine outcome, everything is imbalanced at some point. I mean... th die could keep rolling 20 over and over and over...

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

While damage might seem more potent at higher levels than AC, they are NOT related. A 20th level fighter might have 200 hit points. Without some serious game-breaking cheese, that fighter won't even have 100 AC. Heck, he'd be hard pressed to have 50.

Also, by the time you can have 100 natural strength, for VSC purposes, you are going to have A LOT more HP. If you just use your 1-per-4-levels stat up, it takes 308 levels to get 100 strength, even with the +5 inherrent. You might be able to get 100 strength by 100th level with the Great Strength feat, and/or barbarian rage, but that just gives you X8 damage. Too bad a 100th level character has X100 Hitpoints from con.

Strength does look unbalancing at those levels, because it's the only stat that gives a mechanical bonus to killing people. Dex just lets you dodge or hit with finesse. Con lets you survive blows. Int, Wisdom, and Charisma, barring class features or feats, only grant bonuses to skills. Surly if there was some scaling mechanic for those stats they would seem unbalanced too. Example: What if for every 2 points of constitution, you could ignore all the effects and damage of 1 single attack or spell a day? 100 Con now seems much more potent.

But as Pssthpok has said (roughly), there isn't too much in D20 that is equal, and thats all right. If it was, the game would be boring.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

As I have stated before the relationship between Attack vs. AC and Damage vs. HP inverts when you go from Low to Epic levels.

At Low levels you hit less often, but damage is a much higher percentage of your opponent's total hit points.

Whereas at epic levels you hit often, but each individual attack is perhaps a fraction of your opponent's total hit points.

However, the ever increasing epic gulf keeps widening. So unless you do something to rein it in, combat is going to take longer and longer to resolve.

As we discussed recently, it sounds epic for combat between deities to last for hours or even days, weeks or longer. But only an idiot is going to actually want to have that as a mechanical feature of their game.

Personally I think the sweetspot for combat duration is about 4-6 rounds. Naturally their will be some anomalies, like huge battles between armies, but those won't be the norm.

My way of reining this in, is to introduce VSC's. Which, for the most part I think work very well...up to a certain point at any rate. Which could be described as the point where fools rush in and wise men fear to tread.

 

[dante58701]

Actually a 100 Strength gives you +45. Since anything in excess of a 10 gives you +1 per 2 ability score points beyond 10. Example...20 +5; 30 +10; ect. To have +50 you need a 110 which is fairly hard to come by.

I wouldnt worry too much about ability scores, it's the hordes of minions and weak willed DMs that fail their Will saves vs. "WHY CAN'T I HAVE IT??? I'LL BUY YOU A POP!!! PLEASE?!?!?" that I'd worry about.

 

[Pssthpok]

As if a 100 in a stat is any easier than a 110. :\
That furthers my point that the math may work but theory and practice are two different things.

 

[Gothenem]

Blech, any character capable of HAVING a 100 Strength should be MORE than able to handle any deficiencies in his stats. After all, he managed to MAKE it to said level.

Now, It is possible to have a 100-ish strength by level 80 (Depending on your race and all that). If one made it to that level, a +45 to damage isn't really gonna hurt most other creatures

Really.

Thus the reason U_K introduced VSC's