Superhero RPG

[GoodKingJayIII]

Spurred on by this thread, I reread a lot of the M&M 2nd Edition book over the weekend. Going back, it seems like 2nd ed. added a lot of unnecessary complexity. I almost would rather go back to 1st edition, important some of the new/revamped powers, and go from there.

Off topic, I know. Sorry, I was just kind of struck by a lot of the odd little changes that, more than anything, really confused me.

 

[Mallus]

That's 1 pp per Hero Point with a max of 10.

Actually, you can only buy up to a maximum of (PL/2) Hero Points.

The Luck Feat is a critical part of my current PC's defense, which is entirely fitting for the Egyptian God of Mexican Wrestlers.

 

[Mallus]

Going back, it seems like 2nd ed. added a lot of unnecessary complexity.

Out of curiosity, where?

M&M 2e is one of the few RPG products that I felt was superior to the original in every way. Of course, this could be the product of my erratic memory.

 

[D.Shaffer]

Actually, you can only buy up to a maximum of (PL/2) Hero Points.

*double checks* Whoops.
Well, the point still stands. You really shouldnt be having that much of a problem with Hero Points.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Out of curiosity, where?

M&M 2e is one of the few RPG products that I felt was superior to the original in every way. Of course, this could be the product of my erratic memory.

Character creation was mainly what I was thinking of. I was able to put together 1E characters really quickly... probably about 15 min for a PL 10 hero. That might still be true, but they added several rules that confused me on a first read-through, and a few I thought were unnecessarily complex.

I'm not disparaging the product. Just kinda surprised coming back to it and feeling this way; I don't remember thinking this the first time around.

 

[Umbran]

Cap isn't impervious to lesser threats. He just doesn't get hit oftens; which is the same for Spider-man. A Cap who can't avoid getting hit will fall fairly quickly. Tie him to a chair and see how many blows from thugs he can take then.

Well, if you render any hero helpless, he's vulnerable to much lesser threats. That's not exactly a scenario that describes the power balance in a game well.

I have in mind a scene from the recent Marvel mini series Civil War - spoilers follow:

Spoiler

Cap is there, completely surrounded by SHIELD agents with guns. The standard D&D "The party is surrounded by city guard with crossbows" scenario - the foe is weaker than the hero, but there are lots of them, and their weapons are good. But, like a D&D hero, Cap plows through them. By your description, in M&M, this would not be feasible.

Which is okay - I like Marvel-style, where the hero can often ignore lesser threats, and I like Godlike, where for the majority of characters a sniper is as deadly for the hero as for anyone else. But it is a style choice that has major implications for game play.

So,t aht's why I say it is different - whether it is actually better depends on what you want it to do.

 

[takyris]

Spoiler

Cap is there, completely surrounded by SHIELD agents with guns. The standard D&D "The party is surrounded by city guard with crossbows" scenario - the foe is weaker than the hero, but there are lots of them, and their weapons are good. But, like a D&D hero, Cap plows through them. By your description, in M&M, this would not be feasible.

I actually think that the scenario you describe is pretty do-able in M&M, but I apologize if I'm reading you out of context.

Spoiler

For the sake of the argument, I'm making Cap PL10 and having the SHIELD agents be PL5 minions who use the "Soldier" minion model (one of the more powerful minion models, good for well-trained soldiers).

Cap: trade off attack/damage and defense/toughness

Attack:
+14 (max +6 damage, and I'm assuming that it's max'd out with some combination of Strength and weapon(Shield))

Defense:
+12 including shield (max +8 toughness with Chainmail, Constitution)

In terms of powers, I give Cap Deflection for his shield, dropping it to a reaction and putting points in it to bring it up to his Defense level. So his defense is really d20+12 (minimum 22).

He's surrounded by SHIELD agents, who attack at +5 for +5 damage (assault rifle).

I see Cap as mowing through those guys, given the rules for minions:

- Cap needs to hit each minion (and have that minion fail a Toughness save) once to knock him unconscious
- Cap can take 10 on attacks against minions
- Minions don't get the benefit of the Impossible Toughness Save rule (see below)
- With two ranks of Takedown Attack (M&M's version of Cleave), Cap can take a 5-foot step after each bad guy he takes down, up to his normal movement rate

Cap is pretty much your basic feat-based combat hero, so he has Power Attack, Defensive Attack, two ranks of Takedown Attack, and a whole bunch of other stuff that I'm not writing here.

My interpretation of the fight would be:

Cap puts 5 points into Power Attack, dropping his attack to +9 and increasing his damage to +11.

Cap hits the first bad guy (taking 10, auto-hit), and the SHIELD agent has to make a Toughness save (d20+5) against a DC of 26 (15+11). The minion cannot make the save, even on a 20 (the "Impossible Toughness Save" rule does not apply to minions), so he's auto-knocked-out, and Cap takes a 5-foot-step and auto-hits (and auto-knocks-out) the NEXT SHIELD agent... and so on.

Assuming that there are an even dozen SHIELD agents, Cap can reasonably finish them off in three rounds. If he's smart, he'd be using Defensive Attack (M&M Expertise) up to +4 as well so that his defense jumps from 22 to 26 (he can't take it to 27, because then his attack bonus is low enough that he can't hit by takeing 10). Putting his Defense at 26 means that the bad guys need a natural 20 to hit him (or that they need to use Aid Another to help improve their chances of hitting).

A hit will hurt Cap, since he's only saving at d20+8 against a DC of 20. I'd expect him to take a bruise or two just based on the bad guys rolling well or using Aid Another. Since he's taking down three or four enemies per round, though, he doesn't have to worry about this for long. If they were behind cover and he couldn't get to them, then yes, Cap would be in serious danger of getting whittled down -- but in a straight-up fight, the SHIELD agents are about 20 seconds of hard work.

Maybe I'm just a min-maxer, but that's how I'd do it.

 

[Mallus]

Umbran, that's actually really simple to model using M&M.

Make Cappy's shield Impervious Protection rank 10.

Give the well-armed mooks rifles with a Damage Bonus of 9, which, if I remember correctly put them ahead of sci-fi blasters and slightly behind portable anti-tank weaponry.

Viola! Cappy doesn't need to make a Toughness save at all when hit, unless critted, because his total ranks of Impervious defense exceeds their normal damage bonus (a crit would add +5 to the damage bonus).

The mooks can't hurt him at all, unless they get lucky, and even then, Cappy presumably has a few Hero Points in reserve so he can shrug those lucky shots off in an appropriately heroic fashion.

As for plowing through them, a PL10 Hero with Takedown Attack (ie Cleave) vs. mooks will do this nicely.

 

[Krolik]

Sigh. Of course, I must be playing HERO at some strange power level other than the norm.

No. I'm saying you're playing at 4E power levels, which have nothing to do with 5E Champions.

Tell you what, go take a look at the other members of his own team and come back and say that again. Nighthawk has the same DCV as Defender, but his defenses, Stun and Con are significantly lower. Heck he has the same DCV as Ironclad, the brick.

Nighthawk has the same DCV as Defender when he's wearing his armor, but Nighthawk also has the advantage of Martial Arts bonuses that Defender doesn't. That means Defender usually has an 8 and Nighthawk usually has a 10 DCV. Ironclad has a 7 DCV.

His attacks are also lower.

Wrong again. NIghthawk does 12d6. That's the same damage done by Defender, Ironclad, and Sapphire. So he hits as hard as Defender but only has 2 less PD and only 7 less then Ironclad. Ultimately that only means Defender can withstand +1d6 more attack and Ironclad can withstand +2d6 more attack. They will both be taken out by a 12d6 attack with 2 hits.

It's also nice that your players get Hero Points raining down from the sky, too. It would be extra awesome if they didn't have to spend them to, I don't know, actually take an action in a combat. Yep, that's very HEROIC. "What did you spend your Hero Points on last session, Bob?" "Saving someone from being hit by a truck, how about you, Joe?" "So I could actually act in the battle." "Oh...sorry about that...I'll try and get attacked by one of the villains next time so that you can do something."

I have no control over how many Hero Points you get or what you spend them on. I'd call the hero pretty lame if he had to use them to save someone from getting hit by a truck. His superheroness should be able to do that alone.

In the game I GM players average between 4 and 6 Hero Points gained per session. In the game I play in I average about the same. When I played Captain Thunder in the M&M demo Steve Kenson ran at Gen Con I had 5 Hero Points accumulated in 30 minutes. They're not designed to be an 1 or 2 per game bonus. Like I said, maybe you should have your GM read through the Beginner's Guide. The very first thing someone does in that solo adventure is need to make a Reflex Save. If they fail the simple DC 15 Save they get a Hero Point. Hero Points aren't supposed to be rare like gold. They're supposed to flow like water.

If the odds are 50/50 of being stunned each time you're hit, it's not lucky rolls, it's, to my mind, bad game design. It's one of the very few parts of M&M that's not designed very well, but with all the combat you see in a superhero game it's also a gaping flaw (again, this is just my opinion we're talking about). Is the game still fun? Yes, but it's fun despite this problem.

Well, as I said, Nighthawk will stun himself every time he hits himself. He will be stunned by every blow from Shadowdragon, his archenemy. He will stun Shadowdragon with every blow he lands on him. What you're describing as a flaw in M&M is an even bigger flaw in Champions.

 

[Krolik]

Spoiler

Cap is there, completely surrounded by SHIELD agents with guns. The standard D&D "The party is surrounded by city guard with crossbows" scenario - the foe is weaker than the hero, but there are lots of them, and their weapons are good. But, like a D&D hero, Cap plows through them. By your description, in M&M, this would not be feasible.

I never said any such thing. What I said was that Caps primary defense is his ability to not get hit, either because he's using his shield or because he's using his high Defense to avoid the blows. Cap's training and physical abilities give him superior durability to a normal thug but even Cap can't resist the blows of thugs indefinitely. He is not invulnerable. If he can be hit then those thugs have a chance of hurting him. It's not a great chance, but it's still a chance. Your example scenario is extremely easy to do and had nothing to do with what I replied above.