The Uncommoner (a class for those that are commoners, but not really)

[ethandrew]

I think the only concern I have with this class is with the Factotum option you grant the Mystical Knowledge ability twice, once at 12th level and again at 18th level. It's a great ability, and the fact that you can choose a different class each time is what concerns me. So let's say I choose Wizard first at 12th, that means I get two 6th level wizard spells, which I'm presuming are pretty good (I don't have my book with me at the moment), but then at 18th level you get two 7th level spells, and you could pick Cleric for that. I'm also assuming those are pretty good. So to have a class (albeit they're in tier 5 now, I believe) be able to cast high level Cleric and Wizard spells, although neutered a bit, is really potent. I think the easy fix is that whichever class they choose at 12th is what they again have to choose at 18th.

 

[bedir than]

I think the only concern I have with this class is with the Factotum option you grant the Mystical Knowledge ability twice, once at 12th level and again at 18th level. It's a great ability, and the fact that you can choose a different class each time is what concerns me. So let's say I choose Wizard first at 12th, that means I get two 6th level wizard spells, which I'm presuming are pretty good (I don't have my book with me at the moment), but then at 18th level you get two 7th level spells, and you could pick Cleric for that. I'm also assuming those are pretty good. So to have a class (albeit they're in tier 5 now, I believe) be able to cast high level Cleric and Wizard spells, although neutered a bit, is really potent. I think the easy fix is that whichever class they choose at 12th is what they again have to choose at 18th.

This could be an issue. My alternate route is to say two spells one that must be of a reduced level (maybe 3rd anad then 4th). I want the subclass to be able to dip into all four base classes when it is at 20th.

 

[bedir than]

This could be an issue. My alternate route is to say two spells one that must be of a reduced level (maybe 3rd anad then 4th). I want the subclass to be able to dip into all four base classes when it is at 20th.

Mystical Knowledge was supposed to be a superpowered version of Magic Initiate (most of these features are higher powered versions of feats). So I'm now going to do something like 1 cantrip, 2 spells with 2 2nd level slots and one 6th level slot. One spell may be higher than 2nd. The higher level version would be 1 C, 2 spells with 2 3rd level slots and one 7th level slot. One spell may be higher than 3rd level.

This would mean an 18th level Factotum (no feats used) would know 2 cantrips and four spells that could be cast at 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th level powers. It is potent, but not overpowering and continues to reflect that "I learned this, somehow" nature of the subclass as built.

Later this evening I will update the progression as discussed throughout.

 

[bedir than]

I made a couple tweaks to the Expert, which gets rather powerful in Tier 4, but I feel like a player that's suffered through 15 levels of the underpowered skill-monkey kind of deserves it.

At this point I'm going to work on the fluff, borrowing from [MENTION=6778305]Redthistle[/MENTION] earlier.

 

[steeldragons]

One question, if the intent of this "class" is to MC out of it...why do you have abilities and features for 20 levels?

Make it a Prestige Class with 3 levels...that the prereq is you must take it at level 1 and have no abilities above 15. Features for levels 1, 2, 3. Done. You have to pick something else.

The "Un-Prestigious" Class or...a "Humble Class", as it were.

 

[steeldragons]

B'anyway, you wanted feedback on what you have so far...So, let's see...

As I've already told you, I do not believe classes should be created from the ground up with feats and multiclassing assumed....but since this is a homebrew/for your use...obviously you know that those are in play and even intentionally want this to be something people MC out of.

On the overall, it's solid but there are a few items that seem overpowered and others that seem unnecessarily/arbitrarily constrained to me. Mostly in the higher levels, but we'll get to those.

Uncommoner
Prerequisite: No ability score over 14
HD: d8
HP at 1^st level: 8 + Constitution Modifier
HP at following levels: d8+ Constitution Modifier

Proficiency
Armor: Padded
Weapons: 2 simple (1 may be ranged)
Tools: Any 1 (except Poison, Disguise, Forgery, Thieves)

This is all fine up to the Tool prof's. Just a details/possibilities qualm for me: if they can have Alchemists tools, Healers and/or Herbalist kits, why are they prohibited from Poison Kits or Thieves' tools? They're more specific skills that need some practice and intense training...but surely no moreso than Alchemy or herbalism. Those require an INVOLVED amount of knowledge and study. A guy who has worked in a locksmith's shop or just tinkered around with small picks or plates, figured out how to "pop" things open. I guarantee you anyone with ANY kind of herbalist training/tutelage is going to be taught what is poisonous!

I say, just make this "Any 1 set of tools or kit", without exceptions.

Saving Throw: Constitution, Intelligence

I'm inlcined to make this one or the other...or, for that matter, ANY single ability of their choice.

"But all classes get two Save proficiencies" you say? Yes! But these guys are "Uncommon" and no other class gets to CHOOSE their save prof. [This also lends a bit of impetus for your players

Skills: Any 3 of Athletics, History, Religion, Animal Handling, Nature, Insight

Another quibble here...Religion, Nature and History all involve a good amount of study/learning. Uncommon, yes. But I think a bit "esoteric", maybe for uncommon Commoners, certainly to have skill in multiple esoteric areas. I might swap out Nature, at least, for Survival...and Religion for...I don't know Persuasion? I suppose you could leave the rest.

OR, as with the skills, just open it up. These are supposed to be uncommon guys from any/all walks of "normal" life, right? Give them 3 (I might even say only 2), but they can choose whatever ones they want...as befits the characters backstory/commoner experience.

OR, if you want the skill "list" like other classes have, then I'd go with: "Athletics, Animal Handling, Insight, Survival, and/or any ONE Lore[Int] skill of your choice. Your Uncommoner may only ever have a single Lore[Int] skill."

Equipment:
a) One of each weapon known. If no ranged weapons are known they also get padded armor. Ranged weapons get 20 ammunition.
b) An extra known thrown weapon, if known, or a Healer’s Kit
c) An explorer’s pack
d) The known tool/kit

As written, this sound like you're getting a third known weapon (if it's thrown). I would probably reorganize Equipment thusly:
a) One weapon known and a) a ranged missile weapon known w/20 ammo or b) two ranged weapons known if they have the "thrown" property or c) a second melee weapon known.
b) Padded armor
c) An Explorer's Pack and Healer's Kit
d) The known tool/kit for their chosen proficiency.

Multiclassing
Proficiency granted on multi-classing: a single simple weapon, 1 tool/kit (excepting Poison, Disguise, Forgery, Thieves)

I'd take this out. There is no precedent for a class giving specific directions/changing what they grant (let alone granting EXTRA!) for multiclassing. If you multiclass from Uncommoner to some other class...you gain the proficiencies of that new class. YOu don't get MORE from the class you're leaving. This is bad (and I'd say OP), take it out.

Uncommoner Features
1^st level: Expertise in any one skill or tools known
Unusual (the Uncommoner has a Feat, if human this is a second Feat)

Expertise on 1 thing is cool (if a bit underpowered), matches the idea/theme/flavor without stepping on Thief toes.

I've already said about the feat...but this additionally assumes the use of the Human Variant (for their extra feat). This is a no, for me. I LIKE "Unusual" as a feature name...but it shouldn't depend on picking a feat [obviously, it can because this is a homebrew. But I do not believe it should.].

2^nd level: Helpful (the Uncommoner is able Help as a bonus action)
Militia Member: 1 Polearm (glaive, pike, and halberd) or 1 ranged simple weapon

Helpful is a GREAT idea! I might even make it a 1st level trait...push the expertise back a level or two and you can just let it be two skills/tools, as normal/the Rogue.

Militia Member grants an additional weapon prof? I mean, I get the flavor and it makes sense...but...meh. I guess it's fine. Leave it.

3^rd level: Choose an Archetype (Factotum, Expert)
4^th level: ASI or Feat

No "or Feat." ASI is the feature. If a given table is using feats, then the option to pick a feat instead is on the table automatically and a feature of gameplay, not the class.

5^th level: Proficiency in Light Armor
New Career (the Uncommoner takes a new background as if a 1st level character)
Work Together (the Uncommoner is assumed to be skilled when helping another character complete a task)

Coupla things here.
1. Why are they receiving 3 features at 5th level? Classes are not built to gain more than 1 new feature in levels higher than 3rd (for the most part). In a few instances you can have a low level feature grant additional abilities/uses at higher levels with a new feature. But shouldn't be the norm and definitely not "get three whole/new features in a single level.
2. New Career. Again, I get the flavor/what you're trying to do, but selecting another "Background" (and all that entails: bonds, flaws, ideals, more skills, etc...) at 5th level just hurts my immersion brain.
3. It seems to me proficiency in armor (particularly Light which they already have proficiency in one of) should be coming before proficiencies in additional weapons.

To be honest, I am tempted to take the Padded prof out of the base class at all. Make "Armor Adept" [or some such] a thing at 1st or 2nd level: "Choose ONE kind of light armor in which you are proficient. At X (slightly higher) level you learn another Light armor of your choice that you have access to. At Y [a third, higher] level, choose a third light or any single type of Medium armor, you have access to, in which you become proficient.
4. Auto prof to any skill for Aiding Another seems OPed at 5th level. And you have too many features here anyway.

6^th level: Archetype
7^th level: ASI or Feat
8^th level: Shield, 2 weapon proficiencies with no limits

Huh? So they get proficiency in Shields now? I would add that into the base prof (Padded and Shields) or, if you like the armor adept idea, include it in there, giving them shields with their 2nd light armor choice.

And two more weapon profs? That brings them up to 5? Why not, as the PHB models, just go the Monk or Rogue route and say they get all [can be proficient with any] Simple Weapons, and X martial weapon...in this case, given the early level and weird specificity, just add the polearms there. If you want/the intention here (as I suspect) is to add in Martial Melee weapons...then just do that as the 8th level feature.

Or, so as to avoid "You are now really a full-fledged Fighter", something like, "Student of Arms: you become proficient in a martial weapon of your choice. For each level after 8th, you learn proficiency with an additional 1 martial weapon, up to a total of 1 +your Int. modifier (or something like that)."

9^th level: Archetype
10^th level: ASI or Feat
11^th level: Rally (with 10 minutes of speaking the Uncommoner can grant the benefits of Inspiring Leader, or can give half their level + Charisma modifier on any skill/tool/kit check)
New Career (the Uncommoner takes a new background as if a 1st level character)

I am really not a fan of granting Feat level powers as class features. If you want something like this, duplicate or adjust the Bardic Inspiration mechanic to do something akin to what you want.

See above regarding taking on new Backgrounds at these levels. If the object is to grant additional skills, seems these places are where you want/ought to have your Expertise to boost the bonus to the prof's you already have.

Not to mention there is no way/reason you should be receiving two new additional features at 11th level!

12^th level: Archetype
13^th level: ASI or Feat
14^th level: Most Skilled (all skill, tool and kit checks are conducted with advantage)

Most SKilled is a good feature. Flavorful and makes sense mechanically. Might even be a bit too far back. THIS could be a nice 11th level feature. Scrap the ones that are there.

15^th level: Archetype
16^th level: ASI or Feat
17^th level: Swarm of Workers (if intelligent neutral or friendly creatures are within a day’s travel a number equal to 4d6+Charisma modifier will answer the summons. They obey for a number days equal to a Persuasion (CHA) check. They will not fight, but will work for you at half wages and can provide cover. This increases to 5d6+Charisma modifier at 20^th level. If no available creatures are in range 2d6 Unseen Servants are summoned and disappear in an hour)

Annnnd ya lost me. Some random neutral or friendly folks, within a DAY''S travel are going to just SHOW UP? How if this guy "summoning" them? For half wages, no less...and "can provide cover"?! So, call these guys up to be cannon fodder?! This is just plain wrong. A number of days equal to a Persuasion check...how many is that? What is the check/DC?...don't even get me started that Unseen Servants now magically appear.

Just no. Drop this. Or try to rewrite it from the ground up...but I suspect it will still be a no go, in my mind.

New Career (the Uncommoner takes a new background as if a 1st level character)

Again, nope. See above.

18^th level: Archetype
19^th level: ASI or Feat
20^th level: Rush the Job (any long term activity can be completed in one-third of the time listed in the downtime activities)

Why 1/3rd? Seems just 1/2 is just easier. Also stipulate that the use of this feature does not stack with any other downtime time shortening features or abilities. So, it's not like if you have some way to do something in half the time already, the Uncommoner can do it in 1/4. Nuh- no.

Ok. I need to get on with my day. So I'll come back and go through the subclasses later on. Overall, like I said, good start/restart. But a few areas I see/think need work and some reorganizing.

 

[bedir than]

B'anyway, you wanted feedback on what you have so far...So, let's see...
...
Ok. I need to get on with my day. So I'll come back and go through the subclasses later on. Overall, like I said, good start/restart. But a few areas I see/think need work and some reorganizing.

Thank you for the extensive feedback. I requested it as I knew it would be weighty.

Some of this I will address with better clarity (the reasoning and how behind the 2nd/3rd/4th careers). Your notes about the weapon and armor proficiencies are quite helpful. They are cleaner, simpler and still maintain the flavor of the class of nearly commoner and self-taught adventurer. Those are easy and effective changes. They are likely to be integrated.

Based on feedback there are two features that need major reworks (Rally and Swarm of Workers). I like these conceptually but you bring up some points. Rally as a copy of Inspiring Leader is lazy. It needs differentiation. Rally, Swarm of Workers and Rush Job I want to stack. Essentially I want the class to become a Leader of Men type, but in the way early editions had their minions and name levels.

PS: I overloaded my ENInbox so didn't get your response to my PM. That's been fixed now. Again, thank you for the critical feedback.

 

[bedir than]

One question, if the intent of this "class" is to MC out of it...why do you have abilities and features for 20 levels?

Make it a Prestige Class with 3 levels...that the prereq is you must take it at level 1 and have no abilities above 15. Features for levels 1, 2, 3. Done. You have to pick something else.

The "Un-Prestigious" Class or...a "Humble Class", as it were.

I missed this idea and now I'm totally thinking "yep" that's a lot simpler. I should have read this first.

I could do all three as "un-prestigious classes" and save myself a lot of work.

 

[Redthistle]

One question, if the intent of this "class" is to MC out of it...why do you have abilities and features for 20 levels?

Make it a Prestige Class with 3 levels...that the prereq is you must take it at level 1 and have no abilities above 15. Features for levels 1, 2, 3. Done. You have to pick something else.

The "Un-Prestigious" Class or...a "Humble Class", as it were.

This is a workable alternative. The character I developed to get a better idea of the class started to become unwieldy in the 2nd tier; it already had too many options.

It seems to me that steeldragons' scaled-down, prestige-class suggestion captures the essence of what bedir than was seeking: a starting role that can move into any other class of choice by 4th level. Getting Expertise for one skill or toolkit at 1st level, and the respective features of the archetypes at 3rd level provide lasting benefits.

>>>

Another idea is that some of the features for Factotum and Expert at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level could be re-worked into level-3 appropriate archetypes of their own, such that, for example, the existing Factotum 3rd-level feature would be renamed Factotum (Bard).

[These archetypes do not make sense for a player character planning on going on in the same class as the one specified in the archetype (class), at least not for min/maxers; but for anyone wanting a taste of something different, this prestige archetype might fill that niche.]

So, the Uncommoner would choose one of the following archetypes at 3rd level:

>Factotum (Bard's Respite). As written by bedir than.

>A Factotum (Rogue's Apprentice) would gain the benefits as bedir than proposed them.

>Factotum (Ranger's Agenda) will grant Healing Poultices and proficiency in all simple weapons as described, but does not gain Extra Attack until character (not class) level 12 (since even Fighters do not gain Extra Attack until the 5th level of that class) but the Factotum Extra Attack does stack with any Extra Attacks gained from other classes.

>Factotum (Mystical Knowledge) grants 2 spells of the player's choice from any one class, which cannot be cast at a level higher than the lowest level of the spell. The Factotum must have encountered the spell, via scroll, book, or casting, in order to learn it. The DC and casting ability for this spell is Intelligence, regardless of the original class's casting ability.
-On reaching character (not class) level 12, the Factotum can choose 1 additional spell from the same class list selected at 3rd level. The spell's casting level can be no higher than 4th level.
-Each of these spells can be used only once per day, and do not require spell slots. Expended spells are regained after a long rest.

>Factotum (Martial Knowledge) grants proficiency with two martial weapons of the Factotum's choice, and also with medium armor. The Factotum also gains 2 maneuvers and 2 Superiority Dice (d6s), as in the Fighter Battlemaster Archetype.
-At character (not class) level 12, the Factotum may select 1 more manueuver, the number of Superiority Dice increases to 4, and the dice become d8s.

>Expert (Uncompromisingly Skilled). As bedir than proposed it, except that the d20-roll improvements would be at character (not class) levels 9 and 18, respectively.

>Expert (Focused). As proposed by bedir than.

>Expert (Accomplished). As bedir than proposed for 9th level, except that here we'll grab the Extra Attack feature proposed for the 12th-level Expert. The Extra Attack is only acquired at 12th level, and stacks with any Extra Attacks gained from other classes. [Gaining an additional Background, imho, might be too big a gift-bag, so that one I'm scratching.]

>Expert (Brawler). The Expert gains the feat Tavern Brawler. The improvised attack and unarmed attack damage increases to 2d4 at character (not class) level 9, and to 4d4 at character (not class) level 15.
-Sacrificial Defense. As bedir than proposed it, except that the Expert must make a Strength saving throw vs. DC 10 each time the improvised shield prevents the Expert from being hit due to the increased AC (i.e., if the PC has AC 14 without the improvised shield and has a Dexterity modifier of +2 granting AC 18 with the improvised shield, any attack that hits AC 14 through 17 requires a saving throw). On a failed save, the improvised shield is destroyed.

>Expert (Hearty). As bedir than proposed it, except that Slow Fall is not gained until character (not class) level 9, and the falling damage amount you take is reduced by an amount equal to three times your character (not class) level.

>>>>>>>>>

Does this match up more with expectations?

 

[steeldragons]

So I don't need to run through the existing subclasses, then? hahaha.

You're going to go the "Unprestigious [Starter] Class" route? I'll look forward to seeing what/how you come up with it.

I'm not sure I follow Redthistle's suggestion. You should only have one or two 3rd level features. I suppose you could just list them all out, as they've done, and say the Uncommoner can choose one or two. This certainly allows for a good deal of diversity/individuality.

But, equally well, I think you could make your proposed subclasses their own "starter prestige class" would work as well. Or, at least the Factotum. Maybe the Expert is unnecessary/suitably achievable through the Uncommoner.