Thief Tank?

Kithas said:
Edit; I don't mean to be rude but some of the suggestions above are just bad. Using a great-axe? Focusing on Strength? Dwarves? Protection FS? None of that meshes well with a rogue. You need a finesse weapon to sneak attack, you have no need for a high str even if you want to grapple because of expertise. Dipping fighter is much better than being a mountain dwarf, the +2 con is nice but the +2 str is a complete waste. Protection is already a sub-par fighting style and when you want to be using your reaction for uncanny dodge or sentinel it is even worse.
Again I am not meaning to insult the above posters, usually their advice is rather good. I am honestly surprised by some of the responses.

Str: grapple to be sticky. Finesse weapons may be used with str. Dwarf: cheap way to get medium armor. We don't know if multiclass is allowed. Str is iseful against abities that change your position. So you want it reasonably high.

If multiclass is allowed, wearing a shield and using protection style is not a bad idea. Uncanny dodge and protections style both use your reaction but in mutually exclusive situations. You being attacked or your friend next to you.

If tank for you means best defense and highest hp? Your suggestion is good. But if tank includes the ability to actually protect your friends with abilities othe than a body block, other suggestions are not bad. Dumping str is actually one of the worst ideas for a tank, because if you are restrained or constantly repositioned you won't be able to fulfill your job.
 

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First Post
I agree that it is important to get your damage in but going 5 into fighter doesn't seem like time well spent :/ it is an option.
Ok, I just checked and there's no real DPR gain, something like 4 damage ahead on your attack and 4 damage behind on your reaction. At least at level 10.

Assuming 50% hit:
Level 5/5 fighter/rogue = (3d8+15+3d6)*50% + 3d6*75% = 27.375 ~ 17.375 + 10
Level 10 rogue = (2d8+10+10d6)*50% = 27 ~ 13.5 + 13.5
[level = calculations = overall damage ~ attack + reaction]

Assuming 70% hit:
Level 5/5 fighter/rogue = (3d8+15+3d6)*70% + 3d6*90% = 36.75 ~ 22.75 + 14
Level 10 rogue = (2d8+10+10d6)*70% = 37.8 ~ 18.9 + 18.9
[level = calculations = overall damage ~ attack + reaction]


I think you're right. Fighter 1 / swashbuckler 9 has panache, which is better for tanking than battlemaster.
 



Expertise in Str (athletics) works fine too.

I agree that the Str rogue does not get the love it deserves. You only need Dex for thief's long jump.

best a bit of both...

If you do 16 dex and 14 str or vice versa does not matter. At least if you are wearing medium armor.
 

Kithas

First Post
Str: grapple to be sticky. Finesse weapons may be used with str. Dwarf: cheap way to get medium armor. We don't know if multiclass is allowed. Str is iseful against abities that change your position. So you want it reasonably high.

If multiclass is allowed, wearing a shield and using protection style is not a bad idea. Uncanny dodge and protections style both use your reaction but in mutually exclusive situations. You being attacked or your friend next to you.

If tank for you means best defense and highest hp? Your suggestion is good. But if tank includes the ability to actually protect your friends with abilities othe than a body block, other suggestions are not bad. Dumping str is actually one of the worst ideas for a tank, because if you are restrained or constantly repositioned you won't be able to fulfill your job.

Grappling is nice if there is one opponent but multiples it doesn't work well. Also expertise in athletics will more than make up for a low str. As will starting in fighter for str saves, makes it hard to get pushed around or restrained. Most enemies I've encountered don't shove, or grapple/restrain. It does come up and expertise/saves will be more than enough to cover you. Needing another good/decent stat just stretches you into MaD even more. Basically my interpretation of a tank is to be enough of an issue that they cannot ignore you and last longer than they do. There are many ways to do this but the Protection fighting style is rarely a good one. You have so much vying for your reaction, you have Uncanny dodge, opportunity attacks, Sentinel and protection? I don't think I would ever choose protection, I would much rather sneak attack the guy who just hit my friend and drop him than give a measly disadvantage to one attack.
There are very few abilites/features that actually allow you to really "protect" your friends. In Rogue he doesn't have any worth his time. Therefore he needs to play in such a way that he cannot be ignored, grappling is a decent idea but you need a free-hand for it, if you use a shield you don't have that. In my opinion the best option is being able to punish people for doing what you don't want them to do, leaving your space and attacking your friends, OA's and Sentinel achieve this, even better for him because unlike most tanks he gets sneak attack for these usually!


On the Swashbuckler vs thief, honestly Swash has a better version of sneak attack because your OA's will always have sneak. That said you lose a good amount of your out-of-combat utility. I was replying to the op saying thief, he could just mean rogue, in that case I would advise either Swash or AT, swash for sneak attacks and trickster for cantrips/utility.


The dwarf for medium armor thing is a good point, personally though I would rather go Halfling and then get the feat to gain proficiency, or just wear light armor. Usually I assume the ability to multiclass, I have very rarely heard of games where it is not allowed and I personally would never play in one :/
 
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Sentinel is a good option. But you need a feat which takes a while to get. I also like the halfling or maybe even a human and just take medium armor training as feat. That allows you to go 16 dex and 16 con. You still have a 13 to put into str with your standard array. Hmm... maybe that really is a better way to get medium armor without the need for being a dwarf with high str.
Thing is: with the standard array you do have enough good scores so you can afford a medium high score in strength without a problem. And even if I won't grapple or shove all the time, in our group it happens often enough that you should not deny yourself that option.

Oh and it does not seem to be a restriction but rather a challenge.
 

miburo99

First Post
Hmm instead of grappling, why not try Booming Blade to lockdown opponents? Mixing Booming Blade + Sentinel + Warcaster on an Arcane Trickster seems pretty tasty, though might take several feats. Even better if you can somehow land sneak attack damage (or use a Swashbuckler and Magic Initiate or multiclass to get the Booming Blade cantrip). Might still be worth grabbing a level of fighter for medium armor, shields, and maybe the Defense fighting style.
 

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