Try it in your game? Remove caster level.

[Dandu]

Doesn't your bullet point there largely describe virtually every class in the game. You know, like how Fighters need wisdom for will saves?

Fighters do not need high Dex - they can AC with full plate, for example. They also have no monk abilities to fun off of Wisdom. Because they are not monks.

A lvl 20 two handed fighter with a base of 10 dex and a +6 dex item in +5 mithril fullplate (+9 Armor, +5 Enhancement +3 dex ) would have a base armor class of 27. A lvl 20 monk with base 10 dex and wis with +8 armor bracers, +6 dex item, +6 wisdom item would have base 28 ac. The monk may have spent a bit more for armor, but they also get more bang for their proverbial buck.

I have a question: At the level at which you can afford all that, what can't hit an AC of 28?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I figure we can get [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION] to play a monk and [MENTION=35909]StreamOfTheSky[/MENTION] to play a rogue, so that's three people right there!

Sure. I seldom play actual SA-ing rogues, though, vastly prefer Martial Rogues with reach weapons doing battlefield control. If I were to make a "classic" sneak attacker rogue, I'd like the game to be level 10+ so I can afford a ring of blinking and/or have some rogue/caster PrC levels under my belt. Any point before then, Rogue basically is 100% dependent on allies to get his sneak attacks function in combat at all. I'm all for teamwork and synergy, but not too keen on the idea of being reliant on complete strangers to make my class playable at all...

 

[cjosephs1s]

Doesn't your bullet point there largely describe virtually every class in the game. You know, like how Fighters need wisdom for will saves?


Why can't you just build a monk that's virtually identical to the kind of build you'd give a fighter in terms of stats and then focus on strength?

A lvl 20 two handed fighter with a base of 10 dex and a +6 dex item in +5 mithril fullplate (+9 Armor, +5 Enhancement +3 dex ) would have a base armor class of 27. A lvl 20 monk with base 10 dex and wis with +8 armor bracers, +6 dex item, +6 wisdom item would have base 28 ac. The monk may have spent a bit more for armor, but they also get more bang for their proverbial buck.

The fighter will do substantially more damage but he'll also require substantially more maintenance.

And this is operating in the fighters sphere. The fighter cannot then turn around and sneak about the place like a pro nor engage in any significant diplomatic actions, etc etc..

I dont' know about anyone else but If need be I can very easily play a fighter with an 18 in STR and an 18 in Con and the rest 10s and not feel too bad about it. So I've got 4 "dump" stats that I dont' even have to worry about and can still be effective at doing exactly what I'm supposed to do..Taking damage and dealing it.

For starters, monks don't get the feats the fighters do so it makes it difficult for them to just wander up to said dragon and start swinging without a care in the world for their survival. Also they don't get the HP. They may not get the weapon enchants the fighter gets or the armor enchants either.

And what "maintenance" are you referring to as opposed to the monk? Healing? yeah odds are he's the meat shield and the cleric, wizard and monk in the party are more than happy to give him that maintaince while he distracts that dragon so they can cast spells and do their thing throwing out the occaisional heal or buff spell. I've yet to see anyone in a party complain the fighter was a "maintence" problem when this happens. In fact I'd bet they are more than happy to let the fighter take the brunt of the damage instead of them and give them this small amount of "maintenance" in exchange for it.

Who said I want to be sneaky? ROAR! COME GET SOME DRAGON! YOUR LOOT IS MINE NOW! As I clang around in my full plate armor weapon rattling the whole time. Let the rest of the party be sneaking or invisible and then pop out and instead of it being 1 on 1 its now 1 on 4 and I've got the dragons full attention.

 

[Visigani]

Fighters do not need high Dex - they can AC with full plate, for example. They also have no monk abilities to fun off of Wisdom. Because they are not monks.


I have a question: At the level at which you can afford all that, what can't hit an AC of 28?

Point being, Dandu, monks don't "need" high dex. They're only as "mad" as you want to make them.

Consider Stunning Fist. A 20th lvl wizard with 34 int casting suggestion, a third level spell would have a DC of 25. A 20th lvl monk with a wisdom of 20 would have the exact same DC. Getting 20 wisdom by level 20 isn't exceptionally difficult, a tome and an item would do you just fine.


You could focus significantly on strength and only really pay lip service on the rest of your attributes. Armor bracers and a few +stat items and you'd have about the same AC as a two handed fighter and you may not do the same amount of damage but you're not really meant to. More importantly you'd be able to soak a lot more damage in certain circumstances than our friend the fighter. The monk only gets about 1 fewer hitpoints per level than the fighter.

 

[Dandu]

Point being, Dandu, monks don't "need" high dex. They're only as "mad" as you want to make them.

Given that they have class features that run off of Dex and no armor, I would question the wisdom of making a monk with 10 Dex.

Consider Stunning Fist. A 20th lvl wizard with 34 int casting suggestion, a third level spell would have a DC of 25. A 20th lvl monk with a wisdom of 20 would have the exact same DC. Getting 20 wisdom by level 20 isn't exceptionally difficult, a tome and an item would do you just fine.

CR 20 monster fortitude saves:
Black Dragon, Wyrm: +26
Brass Dragon, Ancient: +23
Bronze Dragon, Very old: +23
Copper Dragon, Very old: +23
Demon, Balor +22 - note that this monster has Unholy Aura at will, which will grant it - among other things - a +4 to saves when activated.
Devil, Pit Fiend +19 - note that this monster has Unholy Aura at will, which will grant it - among other things - a +4 to saves when activated.
Red Dragon, Old: +23
Silver Dragon, Old +23
Tarrasque: +38

What is your Stunning Fist going to work on?

You could focus significantly on strength and only really pay lip service on the rest of your attributes. Armor bracers and a few +stat items and you'd have about the same AC as a two handed fighter and you may not do the same amount of damage but you're not really meant to. More importantly you'd be able to soak a lot more damage in certain circumstances than our friend the fighter. The monk only gets about 1 fewer hitpoints per level than the fighter.

Alight, why don't you make a monk to show us all. Level 12 character, 28 point buy, and WBL according to the guidelines in the DMG.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wait, Visigani hasn't just been joking with us about monks being balanced this whole time?

 

[Dandu]

It's still a joke, even if he doesn't realize it.

 

[cjosephs1s]

They are balanced...Cut one in half and weigh each half and they come out equal..skinny little things....lol

 

[Dandu]

Ok, so at level 12, I am going to take 88K gp and buy equipment for a level 12 fighter. Let's say his starting base stats are STR 16, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, and CHA 8. This is, I believe, 28 point buy. At level 12, this will be STR 19, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, and CHA 8.

AC boosting items:
1. +2 Full Plate. +10 AC, 5,650 gp.
2. +1 Animated Heavy Steel Shield. +3 AC, 9,170 gp
3. +2 Ring of Protection. +2 AC, 8,000 gp.
4. Dusty Rose Ioun Stone. +1 AC, 5,000 gp.
5. Boots of Speed. +1 AC when activated, 12,000 gp.

AC: 29, 30 when using Boots of Speed.
Touch: 13, 14 when using Boots of Speed.
Flatfooted: 28

Other equipment:
+2 Spiked Chain, 8,325 gp.
Amulet of Health +4, 16,000 gp.
Gauntlets of Strength +4, 16,000 gp.
Cloak of Resistance +3, 9,000 gp.

Leftover gold: 849 gp.


Earlier Visigani said that the monk was the most balanced class in D&D because he did not overshadow anyone and could not be broken. That does raise the question of what he is supposed to do. I have heard it said that the monk is supposed to be a support character. If so, then how is he supporting people? Ok, sell me on that. Support classes like bards can give out numerous buffs to make people better at their jobs. What is the monk doing?

To be honest, when Visigani said "balanced" it seems that what he means to say is "weakest".

tl;dr: That word you keep using, I do not think it means that you think it means.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Point being, Dandu, monks don't "need" high dex. They're only as "mad" as you want to make them.

While I agree somewhat with the second sentence, I would have to have strong RP or campaign reasons to make a low-Dex monk. (Most of my Monk builds are Dex/Wis/Con.)