(Trying Not To Start A Rant) The Other Side of the Christian/DnD Thing

[Tinker Gnome]

Well, two of the gamers in my group are Christian, my older brother being one of them. The other two are agnostic. I guess I could be considered a Secular Humanist. Both my Mom and Dad are Christians, and they have no problem with the game. So, I guess I am lucky.

 

[2d6]

Great thread!

I'm Christian. I've found that the churches in my area are still holding a dim view of DnD and RPGs in general but it isn't nearly what it used to be. The groups I've gamed with in the past have been pretty diverse with respect to beliefs and we all got along great.

A couple of years ago I attended a cult awareness seminar with my wife. After the presentation we were talking to the presenter and my wife asked him his thoughts about RPGs and D&D in particular and he told her he didn't see any problem with the games and in fact he thought they had some merits. His biggest issue was the amount of time the games consume, but then the same could be said of Sunday Pro Football


peace.

 

[Krieg]

Hopefully, we call all agree that kids playing with guns is bad,

Considering I grew up in a a quasi-rural midwestern environment where just about everyone had a .22 before they were 12 & I was involved with competitive marksmanship since from about age 10, you will have to excuse me for not agreeing with such an absolute (and IMO inaccurate) statement.

After the other pastor had left, my dad admitted he was afraid that I'd say I'd bought D&D books in front of this other pastor. I then admitted to him that I was afraid that *he* would ask if I'd bought D&D books in front of this guy. We had a good laugh, though in a sense it wasn't totally a laughing matter as our denomination did not look kindly on RPGs at the time. He could have gotten in somewhat serious trouble. (Though that never bothered my dad, he was always kind of a lone wolf in the church anyway...)

Didn't it bother you to belong to a group from which you felt it necessary to hide portions of your life?

I apologize if the question is too personal, but it is something that I have never understood as I have always been more of the "this is who I am, accept it or get lost" type. BTW I hope that doesn't come across as implying that RPGs are fundamentally incompatible with Christianity/Religion as it's possible to find denominations that cover just about every concievable gamut of socio/economic/political/spiritual beliefs.

On the note at times there are posters who give the impression that they don't really like the groups they game with. Why would you play with folks you don't like?! (Or participate in any social activity for that matter.)

Two of our players come from deeply conservative religious familys. One, quite literally, had his RPG books burned by his family when they were discovered by his parents as a teen. He's in his 30s now with kids of his own, and his father regularly tells him that he's going to Hell. It's almost too stereotypical to be believed, but it's true. This guy ended up pagan (before giving up on that religion too, and becoming agnostic). He was raised as a Bible-thumper, but the D&D books opened up not only the idea of another religion being true, but opened the door on meeting the many non-Christians that are a part of the hobby. His "fall" from Christianity is directly linked to his playing of D&D.

post hoc, ergo propter hoc (ie It happened after, so it was caused by)

I think it very likely that D&D was a sympton rather than the cause. It sounds like the friction between father & son went far beyond playing D&D. I'd say it's quite probable that the above individual would have found a different path than his father regardless of outside influences.

About the only circumstances under which I interact with a stranger to the point that I learn they're christian is when they're trying to convert me. I've noticed that one tactic during such conversion attempts is to tell me the other things I'm doing "wrong", so D&D will likely be treated negatively.

My experiences have been quite different. I have often come across strangers who are able to express their faith without it being used to berate me. More than once I have received a "God bless you" or similar benediction without any response expected in return.

The one notable exception was shortly after Carl Sagan's death. I was purchasing a copy of his book The Demon-Haunted World when the clerk snidely remarked "I wonder if he believes in God now"? Needless to say I was quite taken aback by the sheer nastiness of her tone.

None of the gamers I know really pride themselves on being different. We all just play a game we happen to enjoy.

I really don't think gamers in general have any special rejection of mainstream stuff.

Agree 100%

Just about everyone I've gamed with as an adult has been either military, former military, government contractor or government employee. Married w/kids & working to pay mortagages, we're pretty mainstream.

No, it prohibits any two different kinds of cloth. The King James Version says:

However, almost all modern translations (excpet those like 21st Century King James and the like, which really aren't modern translations, anyway) render it more correctly.

...and what does the the original Hebrew say? (Since it's the only one that really matters.)

 

[Alcareru]

Wow this thread is still open?

 

[DM_Matt]

Now that you've had your say?

Well, erm, uhhhh......Yes

 

[Hardhead]

...and what does the the original Hebrew say? (Since it's the only one that really matters.)

It says:

iylu hluy al znfuv <yalk dgbw <yalk urzt-al idc <yalk uybrt-al itmhb wrmvt ytqj-ta

But you'll need the Hebrew font, available here, to read it.

Personally, I think it's pretty clear that the KJV is wrong, and everyone else is right. The "literal" translations, like the NLT and the NASB all say "two kinds of cloth."

Still, if a translator thought they had proof the Hebrews only meant linen and wool, you might expect the metaphorial translations, like the Message Bible, to say so. But even the modern metaphorical translations agree and render it as "two kinds of cloth."

Anyway, it's far from being the most controversial law in Leviticus. There's a good summary of it's contents here.


EDIT:

2. Note MINGLED seed. This isnt about crop rotation. This is about keeping different crops separate. It is known historically that it was never interpreted as demanding that any given farmer only own one crop.

Mingled is a bad word, that only KJV uses. The Hebrew is "kil'ayim," literally "two kinds." Still, you're right. The principle is that you're supposed to keep crops seperate. The rules in Leviticus hate "mingling." It comes up time and time again. For instance, there are lots of statutes about even associating with non-hebrews. Even your oxen aren't to be harnessed with a non-believer's oxen. It's the same principle behind the rule that two different kinds of animals aren't supposed to have sex (like breeding different kinds of cattle, or horses and donkeys, or even people and animals). Most modern people draw a pretty strong distinction between wearing a poly blend shirt and commiting beastiality, but Leviticus does not. In fact, Lev 19:19 is prefaced with God explicitly saying "these are my laws, keep them holy," indicating that these were very important. It's a very interesting window into their culture.

 

[Sir Elton]

Andy,

There are a lot of Latter-Day Saints that play Roleplaying Games. If anyone has a right to denounce any game as satanic, it's us. Think of it this way, if LDS christians who work very hard to be Christian in thought, word, and deed play D&D, then there is nothing inherently wrong with the game.

OF course, there is another factor. We LDS Christians have been given a lot more liberity in deciding certain things against the Gospel. For instance, I so much believe that D&D can be used for beneficial purposes that I uphold it as such. Horror gaming, especially Horror of the overly gorey kind, is something I do not Uphold. Gothic Horror, however, has many of the same benefits as traditional Fantasy.

And please note that you can use any game to teach any religion. D&D can teach anything from Christianity to Atheism. It all depends on who the Gamemaster is and his bias.

 

[LRathbun]

Just to add to the list of "me too" posts, I also am a Christian ENWorlder and I think that discussions like this are great, if they stay civil (like this one). Kudos to everyone for doing so (so far ).

I never claimed that Mackie's argument is irrefutable, though I have yet to encounter a convincing argument against it

Just a quick note to check out, if you havn't already, the two recent books by Greg Boyd on theodocy, "God at War", and "Satan and the Problem of Evil." Interesting reads both.

 

[EricNoah]

Didn't it bother you to belong to a group from which you felt it necessary to hide portions of your life?

I apologize if the question is too personal, but it is something that I have never understood as I have always been more of the "this is who I am, accept it or get lost" type.

Oh, in a way, but my views on a lot of things never really matched our denomination's views and I just figured it just another one of those things. I really only "belonged" to the group because my dad was the pastor and so I was kind of stuck with it for my whole life until I became an adult.

---

On a different note -- what do you folks think -- close this now/soon before it gets too negative, or let it go a while longer?

 

[D+1]

Eventually (and I have YET to see a single religious/political thread where this didn't happen), someone, somewhere, will read something that will brush him the wrong way. That will offend him. And that ain't cool.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY has the right to never be offended.