UA Generic Classes--Questions, Comments, NPCs, Prestige?

Particle_Man

Explorer
Frostmarrow said:
So that was it. I'm not sure if you actually could pick Sneak Attack, Turn Undead or Rage for the generics but still it shows what can be made with them.

Sneak attack is broken up into 3 feats, with pogressively higher ranks of Hide and Move Silently as prereqs/ Turn Undead is a feat with a prereq. must be spellcaster (divine). Familiar is a feat with a prereq. must be spellcaster (arcane). Not much difference between the spellcasters, otherwise. Rage is not listed, but would not be hard to make into a feat.
 

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Frostmarrow

First Post
Particle_Man said:
Wait! Bob is the one by the door! Dave is the one guarding! :) (If we are doing the tribute to Kodt, Dave is the hacknslasher and Bob is the traps and doors guy. Although Bob is pretty bloodthirsty too.)

I like the generics. I was thinking of using these (w/o multi-classing), the injury rules, and maybe the "three free metamagics/day" rules from the spell point system (without the spell points).

Of course you are right! My mistake.

There are a bunch of stuff that I find interesting in the UA. But being a minimalist I like the stuff that makes things smaller, less varied and simpler. (I try to convince myself that that is the road to true versatility.)
 

Frostmarrow

First Post
Particle_Man said:
Sneak attack is broken up into 3 feats, with pogressively higher ranks of Hide and Move Silently as prereqs/ Turn Undead is a feat with a prereq. must be spellcaster (divine). Familiar is a feat with a prereq. must be spellcaster (arcane). Not much difference between the spellcasters, otherwise. Rage is not listed, but would not be hard to make into a feat.

I need to get my hands on this. It looks interesting. I fail to see, however, why being able to cast divine spells is a prerequisite for Turn Undead. I mean, a paladin can turn undead before he can cast spells, can't he? Still, it does preserve a few staples of D&D and is easy to get rid off if I really want to.

In the end it's probably for the best. We don't want any wizard's running around turning undead.

Having that out of the system: are there any no-brainers when it comes to class-abilities/feats?
 
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Particle_Man

Explorer
Frostmarrow said:
Having that out of the system: are there any no-brainers when it comes to class-abilities/feats?

One potential abuse is the "Dragonslayer" cheese. Since favoured enemy is a feat that can be taken multiple times, a human warrior could by 20th level take "favoured enemy:dragon" 19 times, always adding the +2 bonus to dragon, and thus do an extra 38 points of damage with every hit vs. dragons, and an extra 2 points of damage vs. almost everything else. But this is pretty much a one trick pony. Of course, you can replace "Dragon" with your favourite enemy type.

Other than that, it depends on what other rules you use. With the injury rules and generic classes, it is a no-brainer to make the good save (or in the case of the expert, one of the two good saves) the fort save, since that effectively replaces hit points. And if one uses injury rules, then Toughness, as a feat becomes powerful (from shafted to uber with the stroke of a pen!), and should be prohibited from being taken more than once, imho. Personally, if you make the reflex save the good save, then I would go for evasion as quickly as possible. Sneak attack is nice. Even a warrior should consider the first feat version of it (2d6 for 4 ranks in hide and move silently), even if he has to use cross-class skill points to make the prereqs.

If the injury rules are not used, then in my opinion the expert seems a bit too weak compared to the others. Some of the feats have skill prereqs that are low enough that a dedicated fighter could get most of the cool ones, and this leaves less room for the expert to shine, especially in a large party where, for instance, one warrior could be the "traps" guy, another the "spot/listen" guy, etc. I would bump up the expert skill points/level to 8, but that is just me.

It seems that (at least by default, since nothing specifically is mentioned), while divine and arcane spellcasters are almost identical, the arcane spellcasters still have a penalty for somatic component spells cast while in armour. The divine spellcasters don't, although they do not start with any armour feats. If you think that this is unfair, you can either add the armour penalty to the divines or strip it from the arcanes, or split the difference for both (eg. ok in light armour, not in medium or heavy armour or with shields).

Other notes: As written, the warrior's feats can be taken from elsewhere than the fighter feat list, and the spellcaster feats can be taken from elsewhere than the very limited wizard feat list. But, as written, none of the generics can take weapon specialization, unless one changes the prerequisite, (since there are no fighters, there can be no 4th level fighters). Spell mastery, of course, is inapplicable in a world of nothing but spontaneous spellcasters.

Since both arcane and divine spellcasters use spontaneous magic, it is likely that they have the same "spell replacement" ability for their spells known as do 3.5 sorcerors (at least, this spell replacement ability has been mentioned wherever spontaneous casters have been mentioned in wotc 3.5, as far as I know).

I would recommend either banning multiclassing or putting in some controls, to stop "Feat cheese", since all the generics get a feat at their 1st class level, and the expert and warrior also get a feat at their 2nd class level. Potentially, a human could have 10 feats by 6th level (2nd level warrior/2nd level expert/1st level spellcaster (arcane)/1st level spellcaster (divine)). Admittedly, this is also a problem in regular 3.5 with prestige classes that are front-loaded with a feat. Hmm...my dragon slayer cheese just got a little worse...assuming that from 7th level on one goes with warrior, at 20th level, 21 feats means +42 damage vs. dragons (or whatever) :)
 


Particle_Man

Explorer
back to the iconics...

Looking over an old issue of Kodt, I just realized that the iconic spellcaster should be Sara, not Sarah. Also, since she is wearing a fairly obvious symbol of Pelor, I assume that she is the iconic spellcaster (divine). Not pictured is Brian, the iconic spellcaster (arcane). So now we got Bob the Expert, Dave the Warrior, Sara the Divine Spellcaster and Brian the Arcane Spellcaster.

Goooooooooo iconics!
 

woodelf

First Post
Frostmarrow said:
I need to get my hands on this. It looks interesting. I fail to see, however, why being able to cast divine spells is a prerequisite for Turn Undead. I mean, a paladin can turn undead before he can cast spells, can't he? Still, it does preserve a few staples of D&D and is easy to get rid off if I really want to.

In the end it's probably for the best. We don't want any wizard's running around turning undead.

Which is why my conceptually-similar system has 6 classes, instead of 3. In addition to the fighting class, the skill class, and the spellcasting class, there's the wilderness class (such things as huntsman, animal companions, etc.), the "zen" class (wushu-style martial-arts stuff, psychic abilities), and the faithful class (divine favor, turning undead, etc.). A few combinations (faithful+wilderness=totem spirit/shaman; zen+spellcaster=psion; faithful+warrior=paladin; faithful+spellcaster=cleric; skillful+warrior=rogue; zen+warrior=monk; etc.), some feat chains, and you've pretty much got the bases covered.
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
woodelf said:
Which is why my conceptually-similar system has 6 classes, instead of 3. In addition to the fighting class, the skill class, and the spellcasting class, there's the wilderness class (such things as huntsman, animal companions, etc.)
isn't that covered by spellcasting and skill use?
, the "zen" class (wushu-style martial-arts stuff, psychic abilities),
Again, isn't this just spellcasting and warrior abilities?
and the faithful class (divine favor, turning undead, etc.).
Umm.. Spellcasting??
 

Frostmarrow

First Post
Particle_Man said:
Other than that, it depends on what other rules you use. With the injury rules and generic classes, it is a no-brainer to make the good save (or in the case of the expert, one of the two good saves) the fort save, since that effectively replaces hit points. And if one uses injury rules, then Toughness, as a feat becomes powerful (from shafted to uber with the stroke of a pen!), and should be prohibited from being taken more than once, imho. Personally, if you make the reflex save the good save, then I would go for evasion as quickly as possible. Sneak attack is nice. Even a warrior should consider the first feat version of it (2d6 for 4 ranks in hide and move silently), even if he has to use cross-class skill points to make the prereqs.

So this is basically legal? Good thing that Hide and Move Silently prereq as it makes it harder for a Warrior to combine Sneak Attack with Tumble.

Sneaky Clamor: Generic Warrior1; Medium Human (6 ft.1 in. tall); HD1d10+1; hp 11; Init +6 (dex +2, Improved Initiative +4); Spd 30 ft.; AC 15 (+3 studded-leather, +2 dex); Atks +5 melee (1d8+3, masterwork longsword) or +3 ranged (1d4+3, dagger); SV Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +1; Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. Skills: Hide +7, Move Silently +7. Feats: All simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, shields, Stealthy, Improved Initiative. Special Features: Sneak Attack +2d6. Note: Add 1 to Hide and Move Silently if unarmored.
 

Particle_Man

Explorer
Frostmarrow said:
So this is basically legal? Good thing that Hide and Move Silently prereq as it makes it harder for a Warrior to combine Sneak Attack with Tumble.

Sneaky Clamor: Generic Warrior1; Medium Human (6 ft.1 in. tall); HD1d10+1; hp 11; Init +6 (dex +2, Improved Initiative +4); Spd 30 ft.; AC 15 (+3 studded-leather, +2 dex); Atks +5 melee (1d8+3, masterwork longsword) or +3 ranged (1d4+3, dagger); SV Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +1; Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. Skills: Hide +7, Move Silently +7. Feats: All simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, shields, Stealthy, Improved Initiative. Special Features: Sneak Attack +2d6. Note: Add 1 to Hide and Move Silently if unarmored.

If you have masterwork longsword, you might as well have masterwork studded leather and get rid of that pesky armor check penalty. Or get a masterwork mithral shirt and increase the ac w/o increasing your armor check penalty. Your call. Also, you get no automatic tower shield proficiency, if that matters.

Oh, and since you are human, you have 4 free skill points to burn. I would suggest tumble, since that seems to be what you wanted to go for (this is why I think the expert is a bit underpowered -- you can do a lot with warrior. On the other hand, the expert does get an extra good save and 4 more maximizable skills, at the cost of hit points, BAB, less feats later on, and weapon proficiencies (but your above guy would be ok with longsword)). Alternatively, you could change the race, but that would cost you one of your feats. Note: Sneak Attack is just a feat, not a special feature, on the generics system. Another alternative (if you used point-buy to make this character) is to let the INT slide to 8 and use the 2 points elsewhere.

I LOVE the generics. I don't mind trading in a little power for the feat, skill and (for spellcaster) spell choice flexibility.
 
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