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Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana Mass Combat

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/2017_UAMassCombat_MCUA_v1.pdf I wasn't expecting an article today...looks like a rehash of the old Mass Combat rules. I was really hoping for the Mystic.... Pretty radically different from the previous attempt, much more abstract and fast paced; which is good, because it has been gestating for two years! mearls has been talking up various DM...

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/2017_UAMassCombat_MCUA_v1.pdf

I wasn't expecting an article today...looks like a rehash of the old Mass Combat rules.

I was really hoping for the Mystic....
Pretty radically different from the previous attempt, much more abstract and fast paced; which is good, because it has been gestating for two years!
[MENTION=697]mearls[/MENTION] has been talking up various DM options in the works; looks like those will get the exposure for a little bit, now.

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I agree, they need attacks that can hit several targets at once in addition to the breath weapon. Also truly powerful ancient dragons should be immune to normal weapons like non-magical arrows and swords etc. So that a town of regular folk would be totally at its mercy and need PCs with their magic to defend it.

I get that mindset on mon magical attacks, but I strongly disagree.

I really do think you should be able to go all the way to the point whre you are fighting EPic godlike things, without magic weapons at all. I houserule out any mention of "can't be harmed by non magical weapons" in my games.

that said, Epic stuff like Ancient Dragons could definitely have resistence, and honestly how would a bunch of peasants even stand a chance even without it? Would they even try to fight it, rather than pleading, or hiding, or running?

But I do think a well trained unit of hunters should at least be able to help the PCs take down the dragon.

ANyway, more actions, attack with tail and wings, a roar that has a tangible effect, palpable Dragonfear, are all ways in which Ancient Wyrms could wreck things and be a proper threat to lvl 20 adventurers.
 

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Lidgar

Gongfarmer
I miss the Huge. I'm still with Large of previous edition.
But the situation gets worse for Hill giant. BR 44 x 4 = 177


Well, it is almost a 10:1 advantage in your example (400 veterans versus 44 hill giants). A fairer fight for the giants would be two units of hill giants versus one unit of veterans.

The size factor thing makes 1:1 unit comparisons based on CR's only a little wonky.
 

Shieldhaven

Explorer
The trouble is that those veterans have the same outcome against an unlimited number of hill giants, because the hill giants never win a contested roll.
 

TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
On math....one possibility would also be to set a CR limit, with more heroic s/m creatures taking up more space. Need room to operate and all that.

Guidance on likely units would also help (will you have dozens of giants versus hundreds of veterans?).
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
So my group used the original Unearthed Arcana Mass Combat rules from a year or two ago, and we hated them. There were lots of reasons why they didn't work, and this honestly changes none of them.

One thing that clearly jumps out to me is that spellcasters are still getting hosed (while melee may have it worse, let me explain)

So, you are the wizard, you jump into a unit, but decide to hold yourself separate from the guardsmen you are helping. Round X, you spend an entire minute casting a single Fireball spell... which is six seconds of you actually doing something. And the result is.... stop the battle, calculate how many creatures just got hit, have them all roll Dex saves as normal, okay these 15 creatures take 1/2 these 10 take full, that kills these 10, which then I recalculate the BR and reduce it (good thing you killed some or that would have done nothing to change the tide of battle) and... start back up the mass combat rules.

Why give us mass combat rules, and then tell the players that they don't interact with the mass combat rules?

I ran into this and something else while playing a storm sorcerer. Durations. I used Call Lightning (it was still in UA) and I would get... 1 strike every minute? That's 10 strikes over the course of the spell, when it lasts for 10 minutes though and I should be getting 100 strikes. And the wizard is only getting one spell off every minute, which is not realistic to their actual impact of casting 10 spells in that minute.

And how do cantrips play into this? My unit doesn't have cantrips, I do, but I can't roll against the enemies BR, I'm dealing damage to individuals hp... which has no bearing on their BR unless I actually get to kill them.

Moving on to melee characters... the 20th level fighter or Barbarian should be a terror on the battlefield like this. Over that minute the fighter makes 40 attacks, which (against minion style creatures) could actually decimate a unit singlehandedly, let alone if they have back up from soldiers... and how is this represented? It isn't.

In fact, I don't know exactly how to calculate CR for a PC, but I know it equals less than their level. An 11th level fighter with 3 attacks could kill 30 CR 1 creatures let's say. IF they are CR 9, they have a BR of 10 vs those creatures 15... which makes some sense because we know how a fight of 1 v 30 would really play out if we slowed it down, but in mass combat world that 1 minute of fighting leaves the fighter having killed... 4 creatures? If he rolls better than the enemy.

And this is even ignoring the weirdness pointed out up thread about LArger creatures being incapable of threatening smaller creatures because the BR, creature limit, and size limit on units, makes it so they have to divide their forces much more and can't be as terrifying as they normally would.


And, because I'm on a rant, let's talk range. If I am using a tactical map and make each square 100 ft like the UA suggests, then everything with less than a 100 ft range is fighting in melee, because they can't attack more than a single space away and the enemy moves an average of 300 ft a turn (30 ft times 10)....

Which is stupid. It means that an army can run up and smack a unit using bows, before a single enemy archer could make a single attack. How many times in history do you think an army charged an opposing unit, over flat terrain, who had ranged weaponry and suffered 0 causalities in the process?


And, any traps, hazards or defenses account for... what? What does charging and falling into a trench of spikes do to a unit's BR? Well, either you break out of mass combat to resolve the actions of 30 creatures being impaled on a pit trap, or you reduce it by 2... which could mean that your clever trap only slightly damaged the horde of orcs. Maybe you could do it by 5... but still that represents a very small number of combatants once you go beyond CR 1/4. Basic orcs are CR 1/2 right, so reducing it by 2 is you having killed 10, while 5 is 50. Fifty sounds like a good number of orcs killed in the trap, but if we bring it up to CR 3 veterans that same 5 represents 2.5 casualties out of 400.

And talking about switching between HP and BR, what happens when the BR is reduced. Let's say we had a mix of units, who gets removed? If they lose 5 BR did the enemy lose 50 orcs in that assault or 2 veterans? If the player decides to throw a Wall of Fire in the middle of the group, and you've got a mix of units... whose hit, who isn't? If the player doesn't specify or you don't have the actual locations of the various types of enemies planned out, then this is a waste because you could switch what the player was hoping to accomplish without breaking any rules.


TL;DR -> Inadequate rules that don't fix the major issues with the last time they tried this.
 

Xeviat

Hero
I think an attack should always cost some potency from a group. But, remember this: a CR 3 baddy is more challenging than a standard level 3 PC. CR doesn't equal level. So, even with the initial 100 hill giants vs 400 veterans, look at 4 veterans against 1 hill giant. The veterans should destroy the hill giant.


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Xeviat

Hero
The trouble is that those veterans have the same outcome against an unlimited number of hill giants, because the hill giants never win a contested roll.

Fatigue should probably exist, or you should always take 1 point of damage from an attack. I don't have my MM on hand; what's their AC to attack difference?


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TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
Just to follow up on my last post, these rules seem to be set up to allow for units made up of high CR creatures...except that they do not actually work for them.
 

Xeviat

Hero
On math....one possibility would also be to set a CR limit, with more heroic s/m creatures taking up more space. Need room to operate and all that.

Guidance on likely units would also help (will you have dozens of giants versus hundreds of veterans?).

Hundreds of Veterans is a lot of veterans too.


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