What are the strengths and weaknesses of different multiclass gishes?

agreenspan

First Post
3FTR/3WLK/6-11PLD is a great split.

Starting with Fighter 1 gives you proficiency to STR/CON saves, this means concentration. It also gives you a fighting style, +2DMG to 1 handers. By the time you get 3 all levels, you also get expanded crit range (19-20), second wind, and action surge.

The three levels of warlock gives you 2x lvl 2 pact spells slots, 2 cantrips, 2 invocations, and and 4 spells known, a patron and a pact. Flavor-wise Fey is pretty awesome since it works amazingly with Oath of the Ancients, but the Fiend's temporary hitpoints per kill is fantastic. Taking pact of the tome gives 3 non-warlock cantrips, the must haves are Guidance and Shilellagh. The must have invocation is Devil's Sight to pair with the Darkness spell.

At this point you can use a shield and quarterstaff with CHA being your stat for attack and damage. (13 STR is all you need to multiclass PLD and FTR, though you will take a penalty to movement in plate without 15 STR). Take the Polearm master feat and you will be able to attack with a 1d4+2+CHA as a bonus action. This gives you the benefits of two weapon fighting without having to take the fighting style or feat or give up a shield's AC (and you keep the dueling +2 bonus to dmg on your attacks). You are also able to cast spells with a quarterstaff (focus) in hand so you get some benefits normally reserved for warcaster. Additionally you get the ability to take a reaction attack when enemies get within 5 ft of you.

You can create your own magical darkness - centered on yourself - and see in it. Any combat inside this sphere against enemies which rely on sight gives the opponents disadvantage and you advantage. With the already expanded crit range, you now have a 19% crit chance.

Your pact magic and your action surge and second wind are all on a short rest timer.

Paladin gives you many awesome features. At level 2 you gain smite, spells and the other +1AC fighting style. You should now have 21 AC in non-magical plate/shield. Spells like bless, protection from good and evil, shield of faith and cure wounds are fantastic and can be cast from your warlock slots.

At lvl 3 you gain an oath which can be reasonably useful - I recommend ancients or vengeance (oathbreaker in non AL). Vengeance has the best spells and channel divinity: Hunter's Mark, Haste and Vow of Emnity, but Ancients gives you an aura reducing spell damage by half.

At lvl 4, raise CHA to 18. At 5 multiattack brings you to 3 attacks a round (5 with action surge). At 6 you get to add your CHA modifier to all your saves - CHA is a paramount stat, granting you attack, damage, saves, spell DC, pretty much everything. Other levels of note are 7, which brings a second oath ability and 11 which grants 1d8 damage to all attacks.

A couple notes about smites: Try to save them for your crits - the damage from them is doubled. You can expend your warlock pact magic slots on them.
 
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I love it that your possibilities are near endless. 2 level fighter and after that there are tons of ways. Fighter forever. Wizard, warlock, sorcerer, bard. A good baseline fighting capability from fighter and all for the cost of being behind 1 spell level. Yes, you are less powerful, but you are a lot more versatile. Sword coast adventurer guide cantrips will indeed help you feeling great in melee combat, no matter which way you chose.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
So I was thinking about the spells Shield (from PHB) and Absorb Elements (from the EE Player's Guide). These are some great low-level reaction spells for a gish, but surprisingly hard to get because they are only on the wizard spell list. High level bards could poach them, but there is so much else to grab. Fighter (EK) would get them at 3rd. Rogue (AK) could get one at 3rd when you get your only known non-enchantment/illusion spell. I think the current Magic Initiate ruling doesn't allow casting with slots.

Any other ways to get these? Any on a domain or special known-spells list? Any class able to poach these spells besides Bard?
 

Rhogar_Rarr

First Post
So I was thinking about the spells Shield (from PHB) and Absorb Elements (from the EE Player's Guide). These are some great low-level reaction spells for a gish, but surprisingly hard to get because they are only on the wizard spell list. High level bards could poach them, but there is so much else to grab. Fighter (EK) would get them at 3rd. Rogue (AK) could get one at 3rd when you get your only known non-enchantment/illusion spell. I think the current Magic Initiate ruling doesn't allow casting with slots.

Any other ways to get these? Any on a domain or special known-spells list? Any class able to poach these spells besides Bard?

Shield is also on the Sorcerer spell list, so you can get it that way. I was super bummed that Absorb Elements was not on the Sorcerer list. I really wanted it for my fighter/dragon sorcerer.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I'm worried about this working at low levels.

3FTR/3WLK/6-11PLD is a great split.

Starting with Fighter 1 gives you proficiency to STR/CON saves, this means concentration. It also gives you a fighting style, +2DMG to 1 handers. By the time you get 3 all levels, you also get expanded crit range (19-20), second wind, and action surge.

Considering later we're worried about STR 15 so as not to have a move penalty, what attack stat are we using at 1st? Are we contributing as a fighter?

You later talk about using 4th level to get an Chr 18, while having polearm master. So it looks like you're going variant human for the feat at 1st, and taking a 15 Chr and bumping it with one of the variant human boosts, correct me if I'm wrong.

Character Levels 2-3 I can see functioning as a Warlock one level down with an feat that never comes into play and a better AC. The SCAG cantrips aren't even a help because you have to make an attack with them.

Character level 4 it comes together quickly with Shillelagh. Devil's Sight+Darkness is rather party unfriendly, but I'm sure you can find good situations to use it. Also, you don't get to boost your Chr at this level - ASI is based on class level, and as a fight 1/warlock 3 you don't have one. With the build you have above, you get your first ASI at Paladin 4. Frankly, that makes Fighter 4 and Warlock 4 a lot more attractive.

You don't get multiattack at 5th, you get multiattack at Fighter 5 (whcih you aren't planning on taking) or Paladin 5. (Which is character level 9-11 depending if you finish those 3 levels of fighter first). So you are long delayed in getting extra attack. You can boost your damage a bit with Hex, but that is concentration so it interferes with casting a bunch of the paladin spells you mentioned. And hey, the level before you will have had your first ASI and gotten to raise your Chr to 18.

This seems to contribute as well as a replacement character at 4th and 9+, but isn't keeping up before then. Warlock and Fighter 4 for ASIs could help. Which makes Fighter 5 for extra attack early an option (and fighter 6 for another ASI if you want). but at that point Paladin is quite delayed, and maybe just jump in a 2 levels for smites+spells+fighting style, or perhaps 3 for an oath or 4 for an ASI.
 

agreenspan

First Post
This is indeed a suggestion for a human. With point buy and bonuses you can start with 16CHA. If you choose to start with 15 STR you only lose 1hit/1dmg until char lvl 4.

Levels 2-3 you're still fine being in the front w/ a q-staff.

Even though you're late getting your second attack as paladin, getting polearm master grants you a 1d4+2+STR/CHA bonus attack each round, which mostly makes up for this. Once you're char level 9 you have more attacks per round than a normal paladin.

The progression I'd recommend would be
1FTR
3WLK
6PLD
2FTR

After this nearly any direction will yield huge results. Getting WLK and FTR to 4 each would bring you 2 more Feats/Attributes or alternatively rushing to PLD 11 will get you 1d8/hit and haste if you're vengeance.

The defensive capabilities of this character are pretty fantastic right from the start and at 6/10 they become even more so.
 
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mellored

Legend
Clerics, Druids, Warlocks, and Bards can all get shillelagh for their appropriate stat. Add in booming blade/green flameblade and you have yourself reasonable melee damage.

Clerics and valor bards come with armor and full spell slots.

Death clerics have a strong channel divinity.

Arcana clerics are ideal for a dip, with armor and melee cantrips.


So it's really a question of which spells you want.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Clerics, Druids, Warlocks, and Bards can all get shillelagh for their appropriate stat. Add in booming blade/green flameblade and you have yourself reasonable melee damage.

Clerics and valor bards come with armor and full spell slots.

Death clerics have a strong channel divinity.

Arcana clerics are ideal for a dip, with armor and melee cantrips.

I think I'm missing a trick. How do Death and Arcana clerics get Shillelagh? Isn't that only for Nature clerics?

Also, it's a long wait for bards (either bard 6 or bard 10) and you need to make sure they are viable before that unless starting at high levels.
 

Kithas

First Post
I think I'm missing a trick. How do Death and Arcana clerics get Shillelagh? Isn't that only for Nature clerics?

Also, it's a long wait for bards (either bard 6 or bard 10) and you need to make sure they are viable before that unless starting at high levels.

Those are a few separate thoughts, he is saying that the first ones get shillelagh which is nice. Then highlighting other options.
 

mellored

Legend
I think I'm missing a trick. How do Death and Arcana clerics get Shillelagh? Isn't that only for Nature clerics?
Multiclass druid 1, or magic initiate.

A bit easier for arcana, but death's channel divinity is much better.

Also, it's a long wait for bards (either bard 6 or bard 10) and you need to make sure they are viable before that unless starting at high levels.
14 is a viable attack stat for low levels.


longbow with 14 Dex = 1d8+2* 50% = 3.25
vs
firebolt with 18 Int = 1d10 * 60% = 3.3
 

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