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What DO you DO for... Fighters?
- Thread starter Nyaricus
- Start date
Nyaricus:> Well, not a fighter-only feat - but I'd let it be on their list. The prereqs are low, I know that - heck a 1st level human fighter could have it; I was just throwing out ideas here...
Well sure, my point though is that non-fighters get much more use out of it then fighters do - so as a feat it does not help the fighter in his only realm to shine - FIGHTING -
My reason for giving them a class ability that eventually becomes +4 Initiative and the reroll per encounter was to specifically give them something that the rogues would be envious of. One of the tenents of 'fighting' is to be 'always ready' - don't get suprised, that kind of thing - hence the inherent inititative training - which would stack with Improved Initiative if the fighter chose to take it.
Fighters - by design - should be able to fight better then everyone else - it is their realm - their saves are bad, their skills are terrible, the only place they ARE expected to do well is fighting - but the WotC fighter is a 2 or 4 level dip and go join a 'real' fighting class (Barbarian, Ranger, PrC).
Well sure, my point though is that non-fighters get much more use out of it then fighters do - so as a feat it does not help the fighter in his only realm to shine - FIGHTING -
My reason for giving them a class ability that eventually becomes +4 Initiative and the reroll per encounter was to specifically give them something that the rogues would be envious of. One of the tenents of 'fighting' is to be 'always ready' - don't get suprised, that kind of thing - hence the inherent inititative training - which would stack with Improved Initiative if the fighter chose to take it.
Fighters - by design - should be able to fight better then everyone else - it is their realm - their saves are bad, their skills are terrible, the only place they ARE expected to do well is fighting - but the WotC fighter is a 2 or 4 level dip and go join a 'real' fighting class (Barbarian, Ranger, PrC).
Nyaricus
First Post
okay, fair enough. I was just throwing out the idea anyways - likely it'll come into my games as a mid-level feat somehow though, so thanks for that idea.Atreides said:
I think I'm going to start up What DO you DO for... Paladins now. It's been far too long (of course a nice roadtrip like I'm on will do that too you
)DarkKestral
First Post
Alone among the classes, I'd actually consider pumping up their reflex saves and skills.
Basically:
Fighter
Class Skills: Climb, Jump, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Bluff, Sense Motive, Spot, Listen, Craft, Profession, Knowledge (tactics), Knowledge (nobility/royalty),
Skill Points Per level: 2+Int modifier (2+Int modifier x 4 at first level)
You might notice the idea of fighters as being more skilled in general. This is partly because bluffing and understanding your opponent in battle are useful abilities for skilled fighters. Their skills are still oriented towards fighting, but they are not the complete slouches elsewhere they once were.
BAB per level: +1
Fort Save: Good
Reflex Save: Bad
Will Save: Bad
I dunno how many fighter feats should be sacrificed for these but...
Magic's Shield (su): At 9th level, fighters get the ability to treat the enhancement bonus on their armor and shields as deflection AC for the purposes of determing AC vs. spell attacks.
Iron Self (ex): at 11th level, fighters get spell resistance equal to 10 + their fighter level
Fighter's Cunning (ex): At 17th level, fighters gain the extraordinary ability to sacrifice an iterative attack at their highest attack bonus to auto-confirm a critical hit on their next attack, should they hit, if they succeed at an opposed Bluff or Intimidate check. (Fighter gets to choose which skill he uses)
Basically:
Fighter
Class Skills: Climb, Jump, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Bluff, Sense Motive, Spot, Listen, Craft, Profession, Knowledge (tactics), Knowledge (nobility/royalty),
Skill Points Per level: 2+Int modifier (2+Int modifier x 4 at first level)
You might notice the idea of fighters as being more skilled in general. This is partly because bluffing and understanding your opponent in battle are useful abilities for skilled fighters. Their skills are still oriented towards fighting, but they are not the complete slouches elsewhere they once were.
BAB per level: +1
Fort Save: Good
Reflex Save: Bad
Will Save: Bad
I dunno how many fighter feats should be sacrificed for these but...
Magic's Shield (su): At 9th level, fighters get the ability to treat the enhancement bonus on their armor and shields as deflection AC for the purposes of determing AC vs. spell attacks.
Iron Self (ex): at 11th level, fighters get spell resistance equal to 10 + their fighter level
Fighter's Cunning (ex): At 17th level, fighters gain the extraordinary ability to sacrifice an iterative attack at their highest attack bonus to auto-confirm a critical hit on their next attack, should they hit, if they succeed at an opposed Bluff or Intimidate check. (Fighter gets to choose which skill he uses)
green slime
First Post
Hmmm....
Just noticed I had added the following skills to the class list of Fighters:
Heal, Listen & Spot.
Should probably have added Handle Animal as well.
I can never find a use for Knowledge (Tactics) in the game that strikes me as sensible.
Just noticed I had added the following skills to the class list of Fighters:
Heal, Listen & Spot.
Should probably have added Handle Animal as well.
I can never find a use for Knowledge (Tactics) in the game that strikes me as sensible.
DarkKestral,
I would consider adding Tumble as a class skill as well - while it does have non-combat functionality, it is MUCH more combat functional then some of the other skills you game them...
I definitely like the Magic Shield and Iron Self - help the fighters keep up in a high magic world - but I am not clear on Fighter's cunning - can you explain your design intent?
As for Knowledge (Tactics) - I basically designed a skill called Battle which is basically small group tactics as well as large scale maneuvering (several hundred men at a time). I would use the skill for establishing or detecting ambush like conditions - or perhaps when drawing up a design plan to raid the giants cave - a success may reveal a weakness to the structure which no one else was privy to - things like that.
I would consider adding Tumble as a class skill as well - while it does have non-combat functionality, it is MUCH more combat functional then some of the other skills you game them...
I definitely like the Magic Shield and Iron Self - help the fighters keep up in a high magic world - but I am not clear on Fighter's cunning - can you explain your design intent?
As for Knowledge (Tactics) - I basically designed a skill called Battle which is basically small group tactics as well as large scale maneuvering (several hundred men at a time). I would use the skill for establishing or detecting ambush like conditions - or perhaps when drawing up a design plan to raid the giants cave - a success may reveal a weakness to the structure which no one else was privy to - things like that.
DarkKestral
First Post
Basically, the idea behind fighter's cunning is that they use their knowledge of opponent tactics to hide their real attack. They sacrifice their first attack, which becomes a 'cover' for the real attack that will strike at an opponent's weakspot, and therefore do a ton of damage should it hit. It plays off the idea that fighters over time learn how various people are likely to respond to various apparent threats and will start using that against them over time. It is essentially my attempt to give the D&D high-end fighter some of the advantages of the d20 Modern 10th level Soldier (the closest comparable d20 Modern base class/AdC/PrC to the D&D fighter), who can sacrifice an action point to auto-confirm crits. However, the Soldier has only +3/4 BAB, while the Fighter gets +1, and D&D 3.5 lacks action points, except in specific campaign settings, so I also felt it a good idea to limit it to the 2nd or later attack and put in a skill check requirement (though I'd also be willing to use Knowledge (tactics) here, as another choice) to prevent it from being an automatic thing that will always be used if a player has put a heavy investment into boosting the threat range of their weapons. (having doing crits half the time on an attack can be pretty brutal, especially if you can do so more than once a round)
I'd consider Tumble for a substitution class, or a variant base class, where they drop a couple of skills in return for Balance and Tumble (so that they essentially choose a lighter-armored route focusing on Dex or a heavier armor route focusing on Str or Con) because giving those skills means taking over several of the combat advantages of the lighter-armor classes, as far as I can tell, so giving them the skills plus better armor can be quite powerful, especially once the armor vs. spells starts kicking in to offset their generally low Dex scores. (+5 armor and a +5 shield would mean +10 touch AC!!!, rendering their touch ACs easily in the range of a monk's, though the monk gets some of his bonus for free, and would provide a VERY good incentive to go sword n' board mechanically) However, I'd have to playtest the new modified version before I could say for sure whether or not it would be appropriate.
Some of the other houseruled skills (Profession being one of them) are simply because I find the idea of fighters not being good at doing things other than simply thwack things less than intelligent, and wasn't at all related to improving combat ability, but just what I see as bad flaws about their class design. (I can see Barbarians not getting it in most campaign worlds, but considering that fighters are in some sense a catch-all class, it just seems counter-intuitive, and the same goes for spot/listen and wizards vs. fighters)
Were I to have knowledge (tactics), I'd basically allow PCs to use it to get hints about their enemies, once they have heard something about how the enemy fights, or for use in gaining bonuses vs. enemies in combat. Nothing major, perhaps on the order of a +1 or +2 to attack rolls or somesuch in combat, but enough to be worth some effort, especially as those bonuses couldn't be dispelled. I'd also be killing the separation of monster types as knowledge categories but compressing them into a catch-all 'monster lore' category, which would probably be mostly cross-class.
I'd consider Tumble for a substitution class, or a variant base class, where they drop a couple of skills in return for Balance and Tumble (so that they essentially choose a lighter-armored route focusing on Dex or a heavier armor route focusing on Str or Con) because giving those skills means taking over several of the combat advantages of the lighter-armor classes, as far as I can tell, so giving them the skills plus better armor can be quite powerful, especially once the armor vs. spells starts kicking in to offset their generally low Dex scores. (+5 armor and a +5 shield would mean +10 touch AC!!!, rendering their touch ACs easily in the range of a monk's, though the monk gets some of his bonus for free, and would provide a VERY good incentive to go sword n' board mechanically) However, I'd have to playtest the new modified version before I could say for sure whether or not it would be appropriate.
Some of the other houseruled skills (Profession being one of them) are simply because I find the idea of fighters not being good at doing things other than simply thwack things less than intelligent, and wasn't at all related to improving combat ability, but just what I see as bad flaws about their class design. (I can see Barbarians not getting it in most campaign worlds, but considering that fighters are in some sense a catch-all class, it just seems counter-intuitive, and the same goes for spot/listen and wizards vs. fighters)
Were I to have knowledge (tactics), I'd basically allow PCs to use it to get hints about their enemies, once they have heard something about how the enemy fights, or for use in gaining bonuses vs. enemies in combat. Nothing major, perhaps on the order of a +1 or +2 to attack rolls or somesuch in combat, but enough to be worth some effort, especially as those bonuses couldn't be dispelled. I'd also be killing the separation of monster types as knowledge categories but compressing them into a catch-all 'monster lore' category, which would probably be mostly cross-class.
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Just a Cross-Link!
I started a "What do you like/dislike about Fighters" thread, here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=163856
I started a "What do you like/dislike about Fighters" thread, here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=163856
Captain NeMo
First Post
monboesen said:
I like this idea. Definately worth trying out. I actually give Listen and Spot as class skills to my fighters. Just seems to make sense to me.
