D&D 5E What else to I need to consider for a 5e realism hard mode?

[CapnZapp]

IMHO, monsters are so much easier to tune as you say. There are lots of easy ways to make them tougher. Many you can do on the fly.

It would be better if the monsters were "retuned" right in the book.

At least with pc-side tune-ups, the responsibility to remember them falls on the players, not adding to the DM's workload.

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[manduck]

I feel like I need to do something. Right now high level seems impossibly easy. I could do and have done what others recommend: double monster hit points, add extra henchmen for the BBEG, add extra encounters to deplete party resources, add urgency to adventures so the party feels compelled to continue even when they know they are over-extending. But it would be nice if this were unnecessary.



I've never used the RAW HD system for hit point recovery, there are so many opportunities for healing by class features that party rarely has any problems with this. I can't imagine playing RAW for hit point recovery.



Already do all that



I already do a fair bit of this, but I'm sure that I could improve this area. Thanks for this advice



It also depends on your players. If you have a group that just bumbles along like they are going out for a picnic, they die easy. I you have a group that only fights when they know they can win, when they gather information and double check sources, when they spend more time discovering weaknesses and countering strengths in their opponents than they do fighting, when they plan for contingencies if they fail as individuals and as a group. When they calculate risks like actuaries. Then I think the game needs some harder rules.

Sure I could and do surprise them with unknown or unknowable situations, but they are careful and professional. Its hard to threaten much less kill characters like that without making situations that seem ridiculous.

It certainly sounds like you use some of the cool and interesting optional rules to make things interesting. It may seem odd but be glad you have a group that actually calculates the risk and plays it smart. That's more rare than you may think. It also sounds like you have players that are very familiar with D&D, which makes surprising them that much more difficult. Sure, you can add in powers to monsters or do the double damage and more HP thing, but that puts so much more work on you as the DM. You're basically doubling your work load in game prep. I see what you mean when you don't want your encounters to seem ridiculous. Every encounter can't be off the wall with all sorts of different mechanics. It's rare that people can do that level of prep work and it eventually feels silly.

I think some of the other posters are right, D&D may not be the game that delivers the kind of experience you're looking for. If you want to know what a game is really about, see what it talks about most in the rules. The majority of the PHB is about combat. It's classes, conditions, rules of combat and spells. How do you advance in D&D, based on the rules presented? You kill things and take their stuff. That's the heart of D&D. Sure, you can give out experience in milestones or for role playing or whatever else you want. Though that doesn't change what's presented in the bulk of the books, kill stuff and advance. So naturally, that's what D&D classes are designed to do, fight. How many class features, among all the classes, are not meant for combat? Not many. You can run the most story heavy campaign possible, with all sorts of characters and NPCs. Eventually, you're going to kill some things and take their stuff to improve. That's D&D and it's fine. It's great fun, in fact. Though it may not be what you're looking for in a game right now.

 

[manduck]

I should say why I recommended warhammer

1: Spellcasters are rare, and fairly narrowly focused. If you are a fire mage, you're a fire mage. A spell-caster usually knows 10-20 spells, top - no more swiss-army-knife caster that solves 2/3 of every problems! Magic can fail, and may backfire.

2: Heroes don't get tons of HP, they get better at avoiding damage. A "low level" character has maybe 10 wounds (ie, HP). A "high level" champion has about 20 - but he's much better at parrying etc

3: Combat is always dangerous. Although it is unlikely if you are "high level", *any* attack could kill you. Ranged fire is very dangerous (can you parry an arrow? nope) but the range is limited so melee characters can rush you.

4: Healing is slow. Dismemberment is rare but possible.

5: The setting itself is pretty gritty, although you can use the system in another setting if you don't want to use it.

6: With that link I sent you, you can get the rules dirt cheap right now.

I was actually going to recommend Warhammer for exactly the reasons you mentioned. It's also worth mentioning Dungeon World. It has it's roots in D&D but looks to return to the deadlier editions and comes at it from a story first approach. Much lighter on mechanics and meant to be improvised. That may strike your interest too.

 

[Wiseblood]

I have a great group of highly competent players and I'm thinking about running our next campaign with a 5e "hard mode" rules set. We are all interested in a campaign that plays more like a fantasy novel and less like a cartoon or video game.

What I have so far is:

1)HD = 1 + proficiency bonus, first level characters will start with 3HD and max hit points, and will have 7 HD at level 17+
2)ASI = +1 to ability scores instead of +2
3)Feats = no feats or possibly feats for variant human, fighters at level 6 and 14, and rogues at level 10
4)No multiclass or possibly no multiclass into barbarian and sorcerer and no multiclass out of monk, paladin, cleric, or warlock (without penalties)
5)No scaling cantrips
6)Strength doesn't add to hit, Dexterity doesn't add to damage.
7)Slow healing: no short rests, long rest healing is 1+ con bonus
8)No extra attack, except fighters at level 11
9)Having skill proficiency gives minimum roll of 10, expertise is not double proficiency, but gives minimum of 15
10)Ranged spell attack to hit is dexterity based
11)Fireball and lightning bolt reduced to 6d6 damage, delayed blast fireball reduced to 10d6
12)Eliminate paladin divine smite, ranger damage from hunter's mark and warlock damage from hex
13)Old school wizards must prepare spell slots
14)No superiority dice for battlemasters, they can use maneuvers with no limit and no dice
15)Proficiency bonus added to AC
16)Armor gives damage reduction, no bonus to AC
17)Bards are 1/2 casters
18)Polymorph doesn't add any hp and also doesn't meld equipment.

Some of these rules I already use, the big one is the change to HD and rebalancing around ~1/3 hitpoints at high level.

Nice, I wish my players or DM would be willing to do this.

One question though. What about cure spells?

 

[Ancalagon]

[MENTION=6888204]snickersnax[/MENTION] : just saw you want to replace how armor works so it provides damage reduction instead. This is a very significant change that can affect balance in all sorts of ways.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this level of changes points towards a system change... and warhammer does armor as damage reduction and is balanced for it

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[Charles Rampant]

When I ran WFRP 2e back in the day, I remember thinking that it was not all that different from D&D in terms of how the turns worked, but with the classes totally changed into the (sometimes unconvincing) Careers mechanic. I've not run it for nearly a decade, but I wonder how it'd feel now. Either way, I also echo other posters - your changes are rather intense, and suggest that you're really wanting a different genre of fantasy adventuring than the one D&D can provide. WFRP is indeed closer to what you seem to suggest, and is a game that aims for a life-is-hard-and-enemies-are-dangerous vibe. (Though I remember that the enemies in it were also fairly unchallenging, like much of the 5e monster manual; Skaven Rat Ogres could barely hurt the Dwarven characters)

I picked up that entire Humble Bundle, but mostly so I wouldn't feel sleazy for just putting $1 in to get the 30% off coupon for buying Adventures in Middle Earth books...

 

[DeJoker]

Yep. Or if you really want to get "realistic" track down Harnmaster.

I concur with Flexor, Harnmaster was rather realistic as your character could die from a wound long after the fight was over, which is often how various historical individuals died. They survived the battle but succumbed to the wounds they had received weeks later.

That aside your focus is skewed, if you want to approach things and fix them go directly to the point and K.I.S.S. it -- aka Keep It Simple but Smart

For instance the Wiley Coyote falling damage thing -- just change the falling rules you take 1d4 per 5 feet that you fall, and the GM rolls a 1d20 at 5 ft a 20 criticals x2 damage at 10 ft 19-20 critials x3 damage -- and continue with that progression at 30 ft you are talking 15-20 criticals x8 damage that means there is a chance you survive but there is a good chance you land wrong and take a lot of damage and perhaps even die. Note if I rolled a 1 on the critical I would negate all damage miraculously they took no damage like the guy that jumped from the plan and his chute did not open fell several hundred feet or more but survived and only broke his pinky. He luckily landed in a haystack just right

And other things could be introduced (not taken away) that would make it more realistic -- Bash for instance the nasty thing about a Giant is not that he hits hard its that he hits really hard and sends you flying and by the time you pick yourself up your off flying again and while armor protected against damage it made you very clumsy and someone that was quick and nimble could exploit that and kill you by going for your vulnerable points. Like that knight that fought a giant, who got trained by a female knight about why armor was not as good an idea as was initially believed.

The problem with making too many changes, you break the system and expend far to much effort trying to fix the breaks you made

Or as I led off -- use a different system Harnmaster was a good one for more historical realism

 

[hejtmane]

I guess it depends on who's writing the fantasy novel... Moorcock? Tolkien? Martin?
... Pratchett?

Moorcock hey you get sentinal weapons at a cost

 

[Lanefan]

Another thought that just occurred to me: to avoid some of the high-level headaches without putting a hard cap on levels a la E6, simply slow down level advancement by a factor of 5 or even 10.

Yes they'll accrue more wealth and magic per level than the system expects, but so what? There's ways for a DM to get rid of magic items, and non-magic wealth has little in-game effect.

 

[Ancalagon]

When I ran WFRP 2e back in the day, I remember thinking that it was not all that different from D&D in terms of how the turns worked, but with the classes totally changed into the (sometimes unconvincing) Careers mechanic. I've not run it for nearly a decade, but I wonder how it'd feel now. Either way, I also echo other posters - your changes are rather intense, and suggest that you're really wanting a different genre of fantasy adventuring than the one D&D can provide. WFRP is indeed closer to what you seem to suggest, and is a game that aims for a life-is-hard-and-enemies-are-dangerous vibe. (Though I remember that the enemies in it were also fairly unchallenging, like much of the 5e monster manual; Skaven Rat Ogres could barely hurt the Dwarven characters)

I picked up that entire Humble Bundle, but mostly so I wouldn't feel sleazy for just putting $1 in to get the 30% off coupon for buying Adventures in Middle Earth books...

The career system is ... strange. It's both a weakness *and* a strength of the system. Warhammer is "realistic" and one of the aspect of this realism is that you don't choose the circumstances of your birth. So roll twice for careers and pick one. You wanted to be a wizard? Well, tough luck, you got rat catcher or peasant, pick one. (Of course, you then choose to be a rat catcher who wants to be an adventurer/sellsword/etc and move on to other careers). So there was a lot of richness and substance to the system. On the other hand, for some people not being able to choose your class is intolerable. Furthermore, the system was a bit hard to navigate.