What solution for "Cantrips don't feel magical"?

[mortwatcher]

I played with a friend, who played 5e for the first time and he was completely smitten and felt very magical and powerful, because he could cast Light over and over again, to the point I had to Presdigitate - soil his stuff just so he would stop casting Light on my stuff constantly

Does not seem like a widespread problem to me, if it really bugs you, leave them with fluff cantrips and offer proficiency in bow/xbow instead of the attack ones.

 

[TwoSix]

This feels like a non-starter to me. It sounds cool on paper, but remember that wizards aren't the only casters in the game. Part of the appeal of casters like the sorcerer is that the power comes from within, that it is second nature and an integral part of the caster, not something external that can be chosen freely, changed on a whim or taken away.

Makes sense. I'm using the "cantrip wand" rule in a 5e hack of Beyond the Wall, where most magic is ritualistic and component focused, rather than internally driven, so it wasn't really a trope on my mind.

Tying together the two concepts I listed earlier, maybe a sorcerer class feature like "Flare of Power: As a bonus action, spend 1 sorcery point. For the next 5 rounds, you may cast any cantrip you know without expending any resources." Obviously, that would require a more global rule that attaches a resource cost to cantrips.

 

[OB1]

First let me say that I'm in the camp of those who think unlimited cantrips feel more magical than less, but that said I had an idea about this last night that I thought might work for the OP.

Cantrip Loading
To load a cantrip, a PC spends one minute casting a ritual to ready the magical energies of the cantrip in their mind. Once complete, the caster may then use the cantrip a number of times equal to their proficiency bonus plus their spell casting ability modifier before needing to "reload". Only one cantrip may be loaded this way at a time.

Sorcerers who have the metamagic ability use the cantrips they have gained from their class in the regular way instead of the way described here. Warlocks who have taken eldritch blast as a class cantrip ignore this effect for that cantrip casting it in the regular way.


The other idea I had resolves around the attack and save DC to make higher level spells more accurate, making cantrips less accurate and thus more unpredictable in combat.

Alternate Spell Attack and DC calculation
Your spell attack bonus is equal to your spell casting ability modifier plus the level of the slot you use in the casting (Cantrips are 0). Sorcerers calculate this in the regular way for their class cantrips, Warlocks calculate this in the regular way for Eldritch Blast.

Your save DC is equal to 9 plus your spell casting ability modifier plus the level of the slot you use in the casting (Cantrips are 0).

 

[Blue]

Sure, but that isn't my issue. My issue isn't that wizards are able to cast in all or virtually all rounds of combat. My issue is that cantrips are unlimited, which takes the magic feel away from magic for me.

I understand your position, and started the thread to encourage solutions that fit both your sentiment and mine.

In the particular bit you quoted, I was talking about differences in design expectations between 3e and 5e, so that "it worked in 3e" wasn't a proof-of-cure.

 

[Blue]

[MENTION=6976296]James Grover[/MENTION], a concern I have with giving more slots and recovering slots is that the balance right now is that casters have slots that do more than martials, and cantrips that do less, so between them they balance out.

Giving more slots and also allowing more recovery shifts that ratio and gives more power to casters.

In addition the bonus action cost impacts some types of casters/builds a lot more than other casters. Especially sorcerers, this is a huge hit to Quicken spell. And will hurt spells like Spiritual Weapon or Melf's Minute Meteors where you now need to forgo using your spell if you want a chance to recover a different spell.

Of minor concern is that reaction-cast spells have no way to recover if cast on someone else's turn, but that's not really a big deal and could be changed with a update in wording if it was.

I do like that it would make out-of-combat utility casting more common, since there's always a chance to recover the slot.

 

[Umbran]

I think the basic answer for my world to what I infer is the main thrust of your query is that I don't like having a hard, bright line between PCs and everybody else. PCs are certainly exceptional in their ability to progress in their professions rapidly, but in the end, they are special mainly in that they are the characters my players have chosen to inhabit.

No need to be circuitous about it. It isn't a trick or "gotcha" question. That is a fairly common setting conceit, and that's fine. It allows us to note that you don't just want a low magic setting. You want a low magic setting in which the PCs are not particularly notable in their powers and abilities.

Yes, if you want a lot of people in the world like the PCs, and you want low magic in the population, you need low-magic PCs. I propose, however, that at-will cantrips are not the real issue here. Your setting conceit says (to me, at least) that every village and town has people like the PCs - so people who use magic as a routine part of their daily lives. It doesn't matter if they are cantrips or 1st level spells. If there are several folks in town who can toss around fireballs, then it'll feel like there are multiple folks in town who can toss around fireballs.

Not every game is suitable to all settings. GURPS or E6 will probably do more of what you want than D&D (any edition) would do in this regard. Choose the right tool for the job, and all that.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The only way I've ever found to make magic "more magical" due to having it occur less often is via one simple (and extremely unpopular) method:

Remove all magical combat and combat spells.

Here's the situation... most of us are going to have combats in our games. A LOT. In any 3-hour session, chances are pretty good that the DM is going to throw out at least one fight, seeing as how 3/4ths of our character sheets are full of numbers geared towards adjudicating combat.

Which means that any spellcaster will see most of the spells they cast in a day show up as a direct result of combat-- either to attack other people, or to buff people during an attack, or to help folks recover from an attack. With this being the case, of course magic won't feel like this esoteric, mystical, mysterious force. People are throwing around spells during fights willy-nilly! If you have several casters, any one 30-second fight is going to see more magic tossed around than probably all the rest of the magic cast outside of combat for the rest of the in-game week. And because fights happen all the time... all these spells get thrown about all the time.

Now... if you remove any and all spells from the game that are directly used for combat and only keep the ones for interaction and exploration, spells will obviously be used quite a bit less often. And thus with spells being used much less often (because there just aren't as many exploration and interaction spells, and they aren't all applicable in all explorations and interactions), when they do get used, it'll feel like its a fresher thing.

"Ooh! I'm going to use Disguise Self! It's the first spell I've needed to use today!"

If that's how you as a DM and the players want to play spellcasters in your campaign, then that's great! When combats occur, all spellcasters fight with weapons because that's the only option all casters and characters have. Gandalf The White smacks people with his staff during the Siege of Minis Tirith. And the magic only show up later on after the fighting is done and the group is off walking again to be this special one-time thing for just a very specific purpose and use.

But my guess is... most players and DMs don't want that. They want to be able to drop Fireballs on people during fights. A huge part of the game is doing just that. But that's why magic doesn't seem "magical"... because players are dropping half their spell slots blowing crap up ALL THE TIME.

And that's also why at-will Cantrips are not the problem here. After a wizard has thrown two lightning bolts, rolled a flaming sphere around the battlefield, and fired several magic missile barrages at various targets throughout the course of a day... you're going to say that the ray of frost he fires for two rounds is what is making things seem "less magical"? Nope, sorry. That ain't it.

If you're really looking to have a "low magic" setting at some point... count how many spells get cast in a day by your players that are directly during combat. I think you'll find that so long as that is an option for them... you're never going to have "low magic".

 

[Nebulous]

I like this thread.


Personally, I have always liked systems with "recharging" or "drain". Channeling magic IMO should be taxing, and in 5E this just isn't the case. I know it is my opinion, but there you go.

If I come up with anything, believe me I'll let you all know.

Yeah, the "best" solution might be to just play a different game with different mechanics. Although Mouse had some good ideas. I took a look at Lost Citadel, it has a Game of Thrones /Night King vibe as if the white walkers conquered all the world except one city.

 

[Blue]

Cantrip Loading
To load a cantrip, a PC spends one minute casting a ritual to ready the magical energies of the cantrip in their mind. Once complete, the caster may then use the cantrip a number of times equal to their proficiency bonus plus their spell casting ability modifier before needing to "reload". Only one cantrip may be loaded this way at a time.

That seems to get in the way of the flavor cantrips - float my pipe over with mage hand, light it with prestigitation. I don't think anyone has said that those are too plentiful that they decrease from the magic feel.

If we just applied it to attack cantrips, it basically reduces variation - you only use a single attack cantrip over and over. So it makes it more like firing a bow since there' no variation if you have picked multiple attack cantrips.

In addition, even at 1st level you likely have five uses, which should be enough for most combats. So I'm unsure how it's addressing cantrip usage being too prevalent so it's not special. Even more-so at higher levels where it's effectively unlimited.

If you don't apply it just to combat ones you get the same issues, plus you get that players may feel constrained from ever using flavor cantrips because they might be without attack cantrip for the battle, so it further cuts down on flavorful cantrip use.

So I don't see that it's really changing the complaint from those who think it's too common, and getting in the way that cantrips make characters feel more magical.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

And that's also why at-will Cantrips are not the problem here. After a wizard has thrown two lightning bolts, rolled a flaming sphere around the battlefield, and fired several magic missile barrages at various targets throughout the course of a day... you're going to say that the ray of frost he fires for two rounds is what is making things seem "less magical"?

Honestly, I'd start with the lightning bolts and flaming sphere, as the big offenders in this example. If a wizard throws a lightning bolt, or rolls a flaming sphere, then that's about the level I'm looking at. Combat magic doesn't have to scale down all the way from 100% to zero.

"Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Fire Bolt" is no different than "Fire Bolt, Fire Bolt, Fire Bolt" from my perspective, though. I'm looking for "Lightning Bolt, Crossbow Bolt, Crossbow Bolt".