D&D (2024) What's not going to cost discipline points for the Monk to do now?

[MostlyHarmless42]

I think it would be cool if like Sorcery Incarnate, you have a limited pool resource that you can activate several times a day, only provide several options and flavor it as stances, each of which reduces a specific Di point cost. You can still use Di points in our out of the stance to activate the other abilities, but the one you choose causes the Di point cost to be 0 while the stance is active.

Dragon - 1 minute 0 cost FoB
Cheeta - 1 minute 0 cost SotW
Bear - 1 minute 0 cost PD

The problem with this approach is twofold:
1) It is heavily based on eastern martial arts themes, or more accurately a western misinterpretation of them, which is exactly the sort of thing WoTC is trying to avoid by renaming Ki into Discipline points.

2) Even if we are fine with the monk remaining pudgeonholed into being an Eastern Martial Arts user flavor-wise, it still would be difficult to get any two people to agree on which "animals" should be included. Sure, many might agree that Dragon should make the cut, but Cheetah? That's not a recognized martial arts form from pretty much any actual martial arts forms. And even other cats would be disputed. Do you use panther? Tiger? Why not mythical creatures like sabertooth? And why bear and not Owlbear? What about other animals that would logically make sense for some fantasy settings? I.e. should there be a "Hydra Style". If so, what would that entail? And would people consider that offensive because it isn't an "authentic or real" martial art? Etc.

I'm not saying it couldn't be done, I'm just saying it isn't as cut and dry and simple an approach as one might think.

I already posted the solution: give bonus di = to wis. modifier. Flurry of blows works off the attack action. Patient defence works off the reaction. Step of the wind includes disengage and works off the bonus action. Boom. Monks fixed.

I do all of these houserules as well. It's still not enough. For starters, it doesn't address the big Weapon Mastery elephant in the room. Additionally, it doesn't address the concerns over whether monks will be barred from martial feats (due to losing short swords in the last playtest). It also doesn't address that Stunning Strike is a badly designed feature as it incentivises the monk to blow all of their ki on locking down one creature and then complaining when they can't do anything else. Finally, it also doesn't give monks much in the way of out of combat class features, which the barbarian and fighter are both gaining in this playtest.

For myself? I'm currently testing letting monks apply weapon masteries to unarmed Strikes using ki (basically they can pick ANY mastery with unarmed attacks) and have given them another feature that lets them spend a ki point to roll a martial arts die and add it to an ability check as a reaction. Just to give them a small perk out of combat and not encourage them to hoard all their points for stunning strike.

 

[mellored]

That's interesting.

Basically the issue with the Monk is that it doesn't really do basic defense all that well without spending resources, until higher levels, and never has the toughness it needs, and burns through ki way too fast in order to do the offense others can do with less of their resources.

Making mobility cost less, and defense abilities a bit more potent when used would go a long way.

Dancing though the battlefield has been mentioned a few times. And moving after each attack should give that feel.

Though I do worry about the play time it takes. Probably too many decision points, especially off turn.

Still, off turn mobility seems like a good idea.

Heck, let's steal the dance bard.

When an enemy you can see moves within 5' of you, you can use your reaction to move up to your Unarmored Movement. Without provoking Opportunity Attacks.
1DP, you can make an Unarmed Strike against the triggering enemy.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If the game is balanced around certain mechanics, and some groups/DMs refuse to utilize those mechanics, then of course it's going to affect the balance between different classes depending on how they interact with said mechanics.

If you run just two or three encounters a day, with no short rest, of course the Monk is going to feel weaker because the other classes are not required to ration their resources to the degree they're expected to. If all of your encounters fit within a twenty-minute span, of course the Barbarian is going to feel more powerful than other classes. If your encounters are entirely combat-based, with no social interaction or exploration, the Rogue will feel lackluster.

So yes, you refuse to take seriously any experience but your own. Got it.

Many playstyles just don’t get a lot of short rests. That they could play differently is immaterial. Wizards obviously wants to address the concerns of a common issue, as they should.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Dancing though the battlefield has been mentioned a few times. And moving after each attack should give that feel.

Though I do worry about the play time it takes. Probably too many decision points, especially off turn.

Still, off turn mobility seems like a good idea.

Heck, let's steal the dance bard.

When an enemy you can see moves within 5' of you, you can use your reaction to move up to your Unarmored Movement. Without provoking Opportunity Attacks.
1DP, you can make an Unarmed Strike against the triggering enemy.

Interesting. I think I like that but I gotta let it percolate.

 

[mellored]

Patient Defense
As a reaction, you impose disadvantages on an attack against you.
1DP: disadvantages on all attacks until the start of your turn.

Changed my opinion on this a bit. I like the idea that you use a bonus action to chose between offense, defense, and mobility.

Still need mini version.

Martial Arts
While not wearing armor or using a shield, you can use a bonus action to do one of the following. You gain the ability to enhance these features at level 2.

Patient Defense: increase your AC by 2 until the start of your next turn.
1DP: increase to 4 AC.

Step of the Wind: increase your speed by 5' or your Unarmored Movement. The first time you would provoke an opportunity attack this turn, you do not.
1DP Dodge + Disengage

Bonus Unarmed Strike: make an Unarmed Attack


Flurry of Blows: when you take the Attack action or make an Opportunity Attack, you can spend 1DP to make an additional Unarmed Attack agains the same target.

Stunning Strike: as a bonus action, you can spend 1DP and a creature within 5' of you makes a Constitution saving throw. On a failure they are Stunned.

 

[strawbellebelle]

So yes, you refuse to take seriously any experience but your own. Got it.

Many playstyles just don’t get a lot of short rests. That they could play differently is immaterial. Wizards obviously wants to address the concerns of a common issue, as they should.

Then those playstyles should adjust their rest mechanics, if they're not going to adhere to the suggested balance, rather than demanding the entire game change to suit them and them alone.

The DMG already offers a suggestion for extending the scale of short rest/long rest periods, for folks who think six to eight encounters a day with two breaks along the way is somehow inconceivable for their fantasy adventure RPG. (Then again, there are people who genuinely seem to think that going by the "gritty realism" rest rules somehow consumes more real-life time. There are no words.)

 

[mellored]

Going to just to toss out the dance bard idea.


Flurry of Blows.
When you expend a DP as part of an action,a Bonus Action, or a Reaction, you can make one Unarmed Strike as part of that action, Bonus Action, or Reaction.

As a bonus action, you can spend 1DP to
Dodge
Disengage
Dash

 

[tetrasodium]

Then those playstyles should adjust their rest mechanics, if they're not going to adhere to the suggested balance, rather than demanding the entire game change to suit them and them alone.

The DMG already offers a suggestion for extending the scale of short rest/long rest periods, for folks who think six to eight encounters a day with two breaks along the way is somehow inconceivable for their fantasy adventure RPG. (Then again, there are people who genuinely seem to think that going by the "gritty realism" rest rules somehow consumes more real-life time. There are no words.)

While I agree with most of this, I'd say the gritty realism and similar dmg rest rules are included for a different reason. The specific reason is deliberately providing a nonsolition that serves no purpose other than ensuring that it's harder for the GM to replace the terrible rest & recovery rules with a version that makes resting harder or incremental I'm ways that would make the risks of taking a rest [here] and now into a meaningful enough concern to make players avoid recklessly burning resources in service of overkill that they might regret not having when they need them later.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Then those playstyles should adjust their rest mechanics, if they're not going to adhere to the suggested balance, rather than demanding the entire game change to suit them and them alone.

No one is demanding any such thing.

The DMG already offers a suggestion for extending the scale of short rest/long rest periods, for folks who think six to eight encounters a day with two breaks along the way is somehow inconceivable for their fantasy adventure RPG. (Then again, there are people who genuinely seem to think that going by the "gritty realism" rest rules somehow consumes more real-life time. There are no words.)

I doubt anyone actually thinks that. Much more likely is that someone has said that they don't want recovery to take multiple sessions, and you chose to interpret that in the way that made that person look as dumb as possible, rather than actually engaging with it.

Because the gritty realism rest variant does draw recovery out over more sessions. More real life time passes before you can cast that 5th level spell again, or whatever. That's literally part of the point, to make it so that you can't get an effective rest as quickly and easily. The "are no words" because what you're claiming just isn't a real thing people think.

And thankfully, wizards understands that they can make the game run more smoothly for people who don't use the frankly absurd 6-8 encounters a day concept without taking anything away from people who happily play exactly that way, and folks in between.

Going to just to toss out the dance bard idea.


Flurry of Blows.
When you expend a DP as part of an action,a Bonus Action, or a Reaction, you can make one Unarmed Strike as part of that action, Bonus Action, or Reaction.

As a bonus action, you can spend 1DP to
Dodge
Disengage
Dash

Makes sense. It is kindof already in the game at-will with the Tasha's variant feature that will probably be in the 2024PHB, where you can attack as a bonus action when you take the attack action or spend ki as an action, but upgrading that aspect of Martial Arts makes sense.

I'd like to also be able to spend a discipline for adding martial arts die to the damage of a successful attack, even if it's a level 5 option. I'd really like the monk to be able to make one very deadly precise attack when that makes the most sense.

 

[mellored]

make players avoid recklessly burning resources in service of overkill that they might regret not having when they need them later.

This has been an issue for a long time. It even has a name, the 5-minute work day.

The only edition I've not seen it in is 4e. Mainly because it expected you to take a rest between each fight.

Though the fact that you see it on monks instead of wizards is a bit different.

Hopefully having mini version of monk moves will help fix the issue. Since they won't loose as much if they don't rest.