D&D (2024) What's not going to cost discipline points for the Monk to do now?

[strawbellebelle]

Going to just to toss out the dance bard idea.


Flurry of Blows.
When you expend a DP as part of an action,a Bonus Action, or a Reaction, you can make one Unarmed Strike as part of that action, Bonus Action, or Reaction.

As a bonus action, you can spend 1DP to
Dodge
Disengage
Dash

Again, this falls into the "I want to have all these options, but don't want to have to choose between options" entitlement, to the point where this concept could conceivably get three bonus strikes in one turn, all without any additional cost other than the features used for the action/bonus action/reaction.

I doubt anyone actually thinks that. Much more likely is that someone has said that they don't want recovery to take multiple sessions, and you chose to interpret that in the way that made that person look as dumb as possible, rather than actually engaging with it.

Because the gritty realism rest variant does draw recovery out over more sessions. More real life time passes before you can cast that 5th level spell again, or whatever. That's literally part of the point, to make it so that you can't get an effective rest as quickly and easily. The "are no words" because what you're claiming just isn't a real thing people think.

...okay, but...but you realize that, whether a Long Rest takes one day or one week in-game, that amount of time has zero correlation to real-life time? At most, the players might say they did a bit more stuff in their downtime, but that isn't even a given for the format. You are not literally waiting seven real-life days for your characters to fully recover.

Which is also something that comes up with short rests, where they are treated not as something that takes maybe a minute to resolve, but an actual real-life hour. It's bizarre. (And frankly, an attitude that I imagine exists because of people who play classes that don't benefit as much from short rests, such as casters and half-casters—they consider it a waste of their time for that mechanic to exist.)

 

[tetrasodium]

This has been an issue for a long time. It even has a name, the 5-minute work day.

The only edition I've not seen it in is 4e. Mainly because it expected you to take a rest between each fight.

Though the fact that you see it on monks instead of wizards is a bit different.

Hopefully having mini version of monk moves will help fix the issue. Since they won't loose as much if they don't rest.

The fact that the 5mwd has existed as a problem caused by unreasonable player expectations for so long is precisely the reason why 5e making a couple of classes so explicitly designed to exploit it objectively bad design. Add in how the 5e rest mechanics are designed to ensure resting is easy and safe and it becomes reprehensible pandering to to most toxic of munchkin players.

 

[mellored]

The fact that the 5mwd has existed as a 5e making a couple of classes so explicitly designed to exploit it objectively bad design.

Nearly all the classes have resources to manage.

I mean, just imagine that player as a level 5 sorcerer. Cast heightened + Empowered fireball 4 times, then say they need to take a rest.

It's an issue, but not inherently a monk issue.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Again, this falls into the "I want to have all these options, but don't want to have to choose between options" entitlement, to the point where this concept could conceivably get three bonus strikes in one turn, all without any additional cost other than the features used for the action/bonus action/reaction.

Eh I doubt the intention was for it to be unlimited.

...okay, but...but you realize that, whether a Long Rest takes one day or one week in-game, that amount of time has zero correlation to real-life time? At most, the players might say they did a bit more stuff in their downtime, but that isn't even a given for the format. You are not literally waiting seven real-life days for your characters to fully recover.

You are badly missing the point.

If taking a long rest requires a week of safety, it means that the game will go more sessions without one. More real life time where a PC may be pretty well knackered, or need to rest to recover from soemthing, etc.

Like it draws the time between recovery out over more time, which…gets played out. Like…that’s the point. To increase how much gameplay happens between each rest. That literally means that it takes longer IRL to get your abilities back.

Which is also something that comes up with short rests, where they are treated not as something that takes maybe a minute to resolve, but an actual real-life hour. It's bizarre. (And frankly, an attitude that I imagine exists because of people who play classes that don't benefit as much from short rests, such as casters and half-casters—they consider it a waste of their time for that mechanic to exist.)

This isn’t a thing. No one is sitting for a real life hour taking a short rest in game. You are misinterpreting or mischaracterizing people.

The actual reason that wizards and such push to keep going (other than the design mistake of not making every class need every type of rest, even if not totally evenly, and Arcane Recovery not being needful enough past low levels to push the wizard to use it) is that the narrative of the game makes it absurd to stop and take a lunch break, and doing it anyway and just ignoring the dissonance is unsatisfying for a lot of people.

 

[strawbellebelle]

Nearly all the classes have resources to manage.

I mean, just imagine that player as a level 5 sorcerer. Cast heightened + Empowered fireball 4 times, then say they need to take a rest.

It's an issue, but not inherently a monk issue.

The difference is that the Sorcerer's resource (spell slots) are more impactful per use, and thus are meant to be used more sparingly than short-rest resources.

But again, it highlights that certain players simply don't want the "inconvenience" of rests when it comes to other players' resources.

You are badly missing the point.

If taking a long rest requires a week of safety, it means that the game will go more sessions without one. More real life time where a PC may be pretty well knackered, or need to rest to recover from soemthing, etc.

Like it draws the time between recovery out over more time, which…gets played out. Like…that’s the point. To increase how much gameplay happens between each rest. That literally means that it takes longer IRL to get your abilities back.

There is zero correlation between a span of in-game time and the real-life time it takes to play out said time.

You can in fact play out a one-week long rest in the exact same span of time it takes for an eight-hour long rest. It does not require even a single additional session. Each individual day, hour, minute of rest does not need to be role-played by the players. There is no need for the players to act out or plot out additional interactions over that seven-day period.

The actual reason that wizards and such push to keep going (other than the design mistake of not making every class need every type of rest, even if not totally evenly, and Arcane Recovery not being needful enough past low levels to push the wizard to use it) is that the narrative of the game makes it absurd to stop and take a lunch break, and doing it anyway and just ignoring the dissonance is unsatisfying for a lot of people.

A band of adventurers have set forth in search of a bandit camp. After a few scrapes with vicious wildlife, they take some time to rest, gather their bearings, check their maps to ensure they're on the right path, and have a lunch break.

The heroes are traversing a mountain path, encountering creatures and obstacles that challenge their wits and stamina. Upon reaching a secluded plateau, the heroes decide to bandage their wounds from slips and falls, rest to restore their strength, check their gear for damage, and have a lunch break.

After travelling to a city where the evil wizard has made his base, the adventurers check into a local tavern. Though they have no plan to stay the night, they spend an hour to cavort with the locals, play music for coin, learn more about the city and its secrets, and have a lunch break.

The "narrative" is whatever the DM dictates. And there are plenty of narrative reasons why the party might take a break from their travels, as well as the simple logic of yanno, having lunch. There is no inherent narrative "dissonance" from the idea that travelling adventurers or heroes having dealt with foes might stop to take a rest and recuperate. There is no innate time pressure to the game, and it is the DM's choice to impose an atmosphere of "the evil wizard might complete his ritual any minute now!" that might interrupt a short rest.

Because here's the trick: the short rest isn't simply "I got banged up, let's rest" or "I blew all my pact slots, time to rest!" The short rest is part of the narrative. The short rest is the heroes resting up before they delve into the dungeon they've been travelling to, or infiltrate the keep they've marched upon. The short rest is the respite between waves of attackers during a siege. The short rest is when plans are discussed, character moments can happen, foreshadowing can occur as the characters pay attention to their surroundings.

Or yanno, the short rest is the heroes having lunch. People do tend to eat.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

There is zero correlation between a span of in-game time and the real-life time it takes to play out said time.

This replay comes across as you not having read what you're replying to.

You can in fact play out a one-week long rest in the exact same span of time it takes for an eight-hour long rest. It does not require even a single additional session. Each individual day, hour, minute of rest does not need to be role-played by the players. There is no need for the players to act out or plot out additional interactions over that seven-day period.

You are doing the thing people do sometimes where they talk down to someone while being completely wrong and misunderstanding the discussion at hand.

No one thinks that the time spent resolving a long rest is longer. (although it is for any group that is into roleplaying and narrative play, because it's many days of in game time and at least one player is going to have multiple conversations and go buy potions, and whatever else, but not in any serious way)

What people understand and I am trying to explain is that changing to a week long rest extends the in game and out of game time between spending a spell slot, and getting that spell slot back. that is the issue people have with it. I..don't understand how that isn't very clear.

A band of adventurers have set forth in search of a bandit camp. After a few scrapes with vicious wildlife, they take some time to rest, gather their bearings, check their maps to ensure they're on the right path, and have a lunch break.

The heroes are traversing a mountain path, encountering creatures and obstacles that challenge their wits and stamina. Upon reaching a secluded plateau, the heroes decide to bandage their wounds from slips and falls, rest to restore their strength, check their gear for damage, and have a lunch break.

After travelling to a city where the evil wizard has made his base, the adventurers check into a local tavern. Though they have no plan to stay the night, they spend an hour to cavort with the locals, play music for coin, learn more about the city and its secrets, and have a lunch break.

The "narrative" is whatever the DM dictates. And there are plenty of narrative reasons why the party might take a break from their travels, as well as the simple logic of yanno, having lunch. There is no inherent narrative "dissonance" from the idea that travelling adventurers or heroes having dealt with foes might stop to take a rest and recuperate. There is no innate time pressure to the game, and it is the DM's choice to impose an atmosphere of "the evil wizard might complete his ritual any minute now!" that might interrupt a short rest.

Because here's the trick:

No. There is no trick. You aren't lifting the veil on some secret that other people aren't in on. You're just refusing to take seriously experiences that aren't the same as yours. That's it.

the short rest isn't simply "I got banged up, let's rest" or "I blew all my pact slots, time to rest!" The short rest is part of the narrative. The short rest is the heroes resting up before they delve into the dungeon they've been travelling to, or infiltrate the keep they've marched upon. The short rest is the respite between waves of attackers during a siege. The short rest is when plans are discussed, character moments can happen, foreshadowing can occur as the characters pay attention to their surroundings.

Or yanno, the short rest is the heroes having lunch. People do tend to eat.

They don't need an hour to eat, and people don't always have time to stop and plan within the narrative without serious risk of events moving past them. It's not a thing people are doing wrong, it's a type of play that you don't share.

And the designers certainly view it as a valid way to play, and the game can support both.

Like this is the biggest thing i don't get. They can literally just give daily classes more benefit from short rests, and give short rest classes 1, eventually 2 times, per day ability to regain their stuff with a 1 minute ritual. Problem solved, you lose nothing.

 

[tetrasodium]

Nearly all the classes have resources to manage.

I mean, just imagine that player as a level 5 sorcerer. Cast heightened + Empowered fireball 4 times, then say they need to take a rest.

It's an issue, but not inherently a monk issue.

Having resources to manage and having a system that bends over backwards to ensure that a couple classes can trivially engage in safe explosive recovery of them in service of enabling them with a 5mwd are different things. So much so that it belongs under "beginner dm: PEACH my homebrew" not the flagship offering from a multimillion dollar earning industry leading company

The difference is that the Sorcerer's resource (spell slots) are more impactful per use, and thus are meant to be used more sparingly than short-rest resources.

But again, it highlights that certain players simply don't want the "inconvenience" of rests when it comes to other players' resources.


There is zero correlation between a span of in-game time and the real-life time it takes to play out said time.

You can in fact play out a one-week long rest in the exact same span of time it takes for an eight-hour long rest. It does not require even a single additional session. Each individual day, hour, minute of rest does not need to be role-played by the players. There is no need for the players to act out or plot out additional interactions over that seven-day period.


A band of adventurers have set forth in search of a bandit camp. After a few scrapes with vicious wildlife, they take some time to rest, gather their bearings, check their maps to ensure they're on the right path, and have a lunch break.

The heroes are traversing a mountain path, encountering creatures and obstacles that challenge their wits and stamina. Upon reaching a secluded plateau, the heroes decide to bandage their wounds from slips and falls, rest to restore their strength, check their gear for damage, and have a lunch break.

After travelling to a city where the evil wizard has made his base, the adventurers check into a local tavern. Though they have no plan to stay the night, they spend an hour to cavort with the locals, play music for coin, learn more about the city and its secrets, and have a lunch break.

The "narrative" is whatever the DM dictates. And there are plenty of narrative reasons why the party might take a break from their travels, as well as the simple logic of yanno, having lunch. There is no inherent narrative "dissonance" from the idea that travelling adventurers or heroes having dealt with foes might stop to take a rest and recuperate. There is no innate time pressure to the game, and it is the DM's choice to impose an atmosphere of "the evil wizard might complete his ritual any minute now!" that might interrupt a short rest.

Because here's the trick: the short rest isn't simply "I got banged up, let's rest" or "I blew all my pact slots, time to rest!" The short rest is part of the narrative. The short rest is the heroes resting up before they delve into the dungeon they've been travelling to, or infiltrate the keep they've marched upon. The short rest is the respite between waves of attackers during a siege. The short rest is when plans are discussed, character moments can happen, foreshadowing can occur as the characters pay attention to their surroundings.

Or yanno, the short rest is the heroes having lunch. People do tend to eat.

I don't think that it "highlights" anything of the sort because rest mechanics plus those two classes are designed to combine into attempting to Force a short rest every fight or two and to blow all of their resources at a rate that effectively removes any illusion of resource limitations. The game objectively breaks down in many ways when doing that shatters class balance and the gm's ability to challenge the group without throwing outonsters able to spawn what amounts to "BOOMHEADSHOT" inappropriately leveled encounters.

 

[mellored]

Having resources to manage and having a system that bends over backwards to ensure that a couple classes can trivially engage in safe explosive recovery of them in service of enabling them with a 5mwd are different things.

The same thing that stops you from spamming long rests will also work on short rests.

Or just go Baulder Gate and limit it to 2 short rests per long rest. Easy houserule.

Really, most groups have the opposite issue. With the Monk not getting any short rests because the party doesn't want to stop.

 

[tetrasodium]

The same thing that stops you from spamming long rests will also work on short rests.

Or just go Baulder Gate and limit it to 2 short rests per long rest. Easy houserule.

Really, most groups have the opposite issue. With the Monk not getting any short rests because the party doesn't want to stop.

You will note that I have regularly stated they the 5e rest & recovery mechanics are garbage without specifying a type.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The same thing that stops you from spamming long rests will also work on short rests.

Or just go Baulder Gate and limit it to 2 short rests per long rest. Easy houserule.

Really, most groups have the opposite issue. With the Monk not getting any short rests because the party doesn't want to stop.

Give the wizard fewer slots per day and regain more with arcane recovery, and watch that change. Especially if all the long rest caster can get at least a little bit back, which also just makes the resting mechanics feel more organic anyway. Taking a break let’s you recover some of your power, but a nights rest is needed to be back at full (and yes I do believe that most classes shouldn’t be back at full power after one long rest, necessarily).