When did the Monster Manual 2 become a core book?

[Wombat]

I have no problems here.

I just blithely ignore what is "official"

Extra monster volumes? No need.

Epic Levels? We haven't busted 10th in any of my games yet. Again, no need.

Manual of Planes? Not my style at all. Easy to ignore.

Use of minis? Why bother?

Nope, after the TWO core books (PHB, DMG) I am open to picking and choosing; okay, okay, I use the MM, but only about 1/3 of it, so the rest isn't "core" to me anyway

 

[jasamcarl]

I'm still boggled by the fact that the Epic Level Handbook and Deities and Demigods shows so little synergy.

See, I've heard this before, but still don't get it. The two books are not inconsistent; you can create pcs with character levels just like the gods with the rules in the ELH. The only things that aren't used are epic feats and post-20 class progressions, which means little in the context of Salient Divine Abilities, which outclass most level-specific class features and would likely see more use; though I have to say, the book in general will see little use beyond a piece of future trivia...

 

[Tsyr]

I'm curious, too - and is this one of those "you really can't use it at all without the MM2" situations, or is it just a "the PrC can summon creatures X, Y, and Z (where Z is from the MM2) sort of thing?

J

Skylord, page 71.

It's 10th level ability (Which should be cool and stuff, being the highest culmination of the class and all) is to summon a Tempest from the MM2. It is specificly a tempest, not a tempest OR an air elemental, or anything. The ability is called, in fact, "Summon Tempest".

I don't have the MM2.

I have no idea what I need to do here.

This wouldn't bother me so bad, if there were some indication that I would need this book. But on the back of the book, it says:

To use this supplement, a Dungeon Master also needs the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual. A player needs only the Player's Handbook.

So it clearly says ALL I need are those books.

To my mind, if it's going to say that, it should not include information from other sources. Period. If it wants to include that information, fine. But it needs to say so.

 

[Psion]

How so? Dieties and Demigods is perfectly consistent with the ELH, it just doesn't utilize all the options presented; and don't try to claim that the Gods presented aren't powerful enough as is..they are to the point of being worthless. And what problems do you see in the Manual of the Planes, which is primarily fluff?

Who would claim that? Of course, ELH is in theory made to scale, so you could eventually make characters to kick some deity tail. But really, they'd have to be pretty far along and some pretty tough hombres, because some deities are seriously nasty.

 

[Pants]

What I found really wacky about the lack of synergy between the ELH and D&D was that Boccob, the God of Magic, was only a 20th level Wizard.
Sure, he had 20 Cleric levels as well, but... he's the God of Magic!?

 

[jasamcarl]

Who would claim that? Of course, ELH is in theory made to scale, so you could eventually make characters to kick some deity tail. But really, they'd have to be pretty far along and some pretty tough hombres, because some deities are seriously nasty.

You would be surprised. When the book was released and after the release of Epic, many claimed the gods weren't powerful enough. I think the DD forum on the Wotc site has a thread to the same effect even now. Many people who argue for stats let on that they wouldn't be happy until the gods were 1000 level twinks, ignoring the insanity that is the Salient Divine Ability.

 

[Psion]

Many people who argue for stats let on that they wouldn't be happy until the gods were 1000 level twinks, ignoring the insanity that is the Salient Divine Ability.

Bizarre. I'm an "all for deity stats" kinda guy, but I feel like they made them so powerful that they may as well not have. If you make them level 1000, you are definitely in "may as well not have" territory.

 

[Oni]

If I buy a gaming book that does not explicitly spell out that its needs other books, and what those other books would be, to use its full contents in a manner that easily known before purchasing I better darn well be able to use anything from that book without having to make additional purchases. I will not buy a book that requires another book unless I have already purchased that other book, or the usable material is too good to pass up. If WotC wants to try to get me to buy a bunch of books by making them interdependant on one another then I will not buy any of them.

 

[BigFreekinGoblinoid]

If you ARE going to stat out the gods, GIVE THEM EPIC LEVELS in their specialty areas for goodness sake!

That said, deities with stats are rediculous. Unless they are strictly sample avatar stats, but even so, I would never use them.

The ELH/God book catch 22 is not an easy one to solve, but if WotC had it to do all over again, and I was the project manager ( and told that I must include stats for deities ), I would require that the ELH be necessary to fully utilize any deity books. Salient Divine abilites would be included in the ELH, along with suggestions for PC ascension. All munchkins would be happy, as EVERYONE who would actually like to use stats for gods ( and therefore COMBAT) would also be interested in epic levels for PC's.

But back to the larger issue at hand:

I like books that build on ideas in other books. If a book wants to use a monster/spell/ability etc.. from another book, it should damn well give all the MINIMUM necessary information required.

Am I alone in not understanding all the references in this thread to "2e product creep"? In all the Planescape books I recall, the statblocks and spell descriptions etc... were included for monsters that did not originate in that book. If a reference was made that was not integral to the action, a detailed description was not necessary.

So -

I do not have an issue with a book that only makes reference to a monster or PC race in another book. That is unavoidable, especially in deeper settings like FR.

BUT:

BoED should have included details enough to complete a PrC description. How much extra text would that have required? Stoopid.

You can't do everything in one ( or three ) books. But you must be consistant in your approach to handling the issue. Certain things make sense, like requiring an epic ruleset to handle combat with deities. Certain things DON'T make sense, like an incomplete PrC, or multiple versions of Githyanki ( or whatever ) that are fundamentally different from each other.

 

[d20Dwarf]

This wouldn't bother me so bad, if there were some indication that I would need this book. But on the back of the book, it says:

To use this supplement, a Dungeon Master also needs the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual. A player needs only the Player's Handbook.

So it clearly says ALL I need are those books.

To my mind, if it's going to say that, it should not include information from other sources. Period. If it wants to include that information, fine. But it needs to say so.

Actually it doesn't say all you need are those books, it says you need those books. There is a difference.