When did the Monster Manual 2 become a core book?

[Oni]

Actually it doesn't say all you need are those books, it says you need those books. There is a difference.

Does that difference make it any less annoying?

 

[Alzrius]

Well, to be perfecly frank, yes. Anyone who claims that not needing the MM2 so you can know the stats for a single monster summoned at the 10th level of a single PrC is ruining the entire BoED for them is just being too picky.

In regards to the so-called "2E product creep", this one is more myth than substance, IMHO. I had a lot of second edition material, and for a non-specific campaign, you didn't need much at all. I can't remember seeing that many products that required you to have the Player's Option books, or the various Complete [insert class/race here]'s Handbooks. It was a little more true if you bought a book for a specific campaign, but that made more sense, since you were then more likely to have bought the campaign setting and the supplements.

The bottom line for me is that going too far in either direction spells disaster. Perhaps 2E did have too much product cross-dependency, but too little can be just as bad. As numerous people have pointed out, the relative lack of synergy between the ELH and D&Dg was one such instance. Another is how the Realms now have their cosmology based off a tree just so you don't need the MotP.

If you use only the three main core rulebooks as a basis for moving onward, eventually you hit a stopping point. New twists on the same old material can only continue on for so long, after all. Using some of the newer books as a basis for further new ideas is a good thing, since we see results we otherwise wouldn't have. So far, WotC has been very good about this, only using a bit of this here and there, and not flooding their products with it. Frankly, if people are upset at one little "Summon Tempest" ability, then in the larger context of the things, WotC is doing just fine in terms of how much they're making you "need" books beyond the big three.

 

[Tsyr]

Actually it doesn't say all you need are those books, it says you need those books. There is a difference.

I would contend that, common sense aside, not saying you need something is saying it isn't needed.

For example: While a computer doesn't state it needs a source of power (duh), it damn well better state if it needs 220 power, because in America, that just isn't what you think of when you think of a computer.

And it gets worse if you DO say things it needs.

For example, if I buy a cake mix, and it says on the box I need eggs and water... But then I get home, and I need salt and vanilla extract... I would feel just as lied to. And if I didn't have those things, I am just as screwed as not having the other books I need to use something. By not saying I needed them, it as much as said I didn't need them. It doesn't need to say, for example, "need an oven"... That's just common sense. Likewise, the DnD books don't need to say "Requires light to read by" or anything. But there is a line where the implication of not needing something by virtue of not saying you need it is valid... and I feel this book was well beyond that line.

 

[Tsyr]

Well, to be perfecly frank, yes. Anyone who claims that not needing the MM2 so you can know the stats for a single monster summoned at the 10th level of a single PrC is ruining the entire BoED for them is just being too picky.

If WotC wanted to say "Requires use of MM2" on the product, I wouldn't be pissed off. I just wouldn't have bought the book, most likely, or if I did, I would have no room to complain. But they didn't say that. This is why I am being "too picky".

 

[Alzrius]

If WotC wanted to say "Requires use of MM2" on the product, I wouldn't be pissed off. I just wouldn't have bought the book, most likely, or if I did, I would have no room to complain. But they didn't say that. This is why I am being "too picky".

Except for the fact that it doesn't require the use of the MM2.

You seem to not be able to see the forest for the trees. It isn't that hard to replace a "Tempest" with "Elder Air Elemental" or some other elemental air creature for the Skylord's 10th level power. You're focusing way too much over this one little detail that is quite easy to change.

You need the PHB, DMG, and MM because they describe how to play the game and how the mechanics work for races, classes, magic, magic items, monsters, etc. Those are required to use the book. Saying the MM2 is required because one PrC mentions it summons a monster from it is not just unnecessary, it would be borderline untrue. Just make the Tempest some other creature and voila, problem solved. This isn't worth this much debate, let alone all the negative rumblings that we're seeing some sort of bad trend from WotC.

 

[Chasmodai]

you started of this post asking when the MM2 became a core rulebook. you then went on and explained that you got a little peeved when you found that the Skylord's level 10 ability requires the use of three pages of the MM2.

i just gotta ask you one question: when did the BoED become a core rulebook?

there is no need to go all 'rampage-y' because you need to go refer to another book. its just one monster. its not that hard. ask someone on the boards if they could be kind enough to post up the Tempest's stats and abilities. cut and paste into a word processor, print it and voila! your problem solved.

 

[Alzrius]

you started of this post asking when the MM2 became a core rulebook. you then went on and explained that you got a little peeved when you found that the Skylord's level 10 ability requires the use of three pages of the MM2.

Not even that much, actually; the thing has one page's worth of text (broken up over two pages).

ask someone on the boards if they could be kind enough to post up the Tempest's stats and abilities. cut and paste into a word processor, print it and voila! your problem solved.

Well, that's actually illegal, I'm pretty sure, but someone could email it, or even just describe it's basic features so that it would be easy to modify a monster from the MM (or just substitute another one altogether, like I suggested).

 

[Tsyr]

Except for the fact that it doesn't require the use of the MM2.

You seem to not be able to see the forest for the trees. It isn't that hard to replace a "Tempest" with "Elder Air Elemental" or some other elemental air creature for the Skylord's 10th level power. You're focusing way too much over this one little detail that is quite easy to change.

I have no idea what CR a Tempest is to replace it with something.

I have no concept of even what a Tempest is in the first place, aside from I assume having some reason to be named after a storm.

They could easily have reprinted that one monster, if, as you say, it's just one monster, not a big deal. It certaintly wouldn't invalidate anyone's purchase of the MM2, would it? But no. Instead, they make the sole tenth-level ability centered around one thing, and that one thing is a monster from the MM2. Or they could have said "This can be replaced with an Air Elemental of CR XX". Instead they said (paraphrasing, because I don't have the book in front of me) "Summons a tempest, page 192 (or something like that) in the MM2."

 

[Tsyr]

you started of this post asking when the MM2 became a core rulebook. you then went on and explained that you got a little peeved when you found that the Skylord's level 10 ability requires the use of three pages of the MM2.

That more or less sums it up, yes. The first question was a prelude to the second.

i just gotta ask you one question: when did the BoED become a core rulebook?

Never, but that is meaningless. Silly me, I had thought WotC intended to, you know, actually make that "We won't use non-core stuff in other supplements" mean something other than, "Uh... we won't use it as long as we don't feel like it." But heck, again, like I say. Had it indicated this in any way on the cover, this wouldn't have bothered me. Not a bit. I might have been disapointed, but mad? Nah.

there is no need to go all 'rampage-y' because you need to go refer to another book. its just one monster. its not that hard. ask someone on the boards if they could be kind enough to post up the Tempest's stats and abilities. cut and paste into a word processor, print it and voila! your problem solved.

I'm not going "all rampage-y"... I'm actually being fairly mild, I thought. The only thing causing me to get a little flustered is the "Why does it matter, it's just one creature" type posts.

As for asking someone to post it... uh uh. You might feel fine doing that. I do try to obey copyright law, on the other hand.

 

[Alzrius]

I have no idea what CR a Tempest is to replace it with something.

CR 16.

I have no concept of even what a Tempest is in the first place, aside from I assume having some reason to be named after a storm.

It's a gargantuan elemental with all four elemental subtypes, at its most basic. It has a few special attacks, but you should be able to go with it from there.

They could easily have reprinted that one monster, if, as you say, it's just one monster, not a big deal. It certaintly wouldn't invalidate anyone's purchase of the MM2, would it? But no. Instead, they make the sole tenth-level ability centered around one thing, and that one thing is a monster from the MM2. Or they could have said "This can be replaced with an Air Elemental of CR XX". Instead they said (paraphrasing, because I don't have the book in front of me) "Summons a tempest, page 192 (or something like that) in the MM2."

Except that they don't even really need to reprint it at all if you think about it. Most characters take a PrC around 6th level or so, so this PrC's 10th level would be roughly a 16th level PC. That means a CR 16 monster would be roughly appropriate. Given that its for the Skylord PrC, you can surmise its something to do with elemental air. That alone is enough to give you enough to go on; it's not like the power would be to summon a Small elemental.

Also, you may blithely say that they should have just reprinted the monster, but it isn't that simple. Virtually every book has stuff that gets trimmed from it before it goes to print, so the final page counts are pretty crammed with stuff that made the cut. Reprinting a full-page monster would mean something else had to go...getting rid of new stuff for material that has already seen print. That would have been much more unfair to the people who already owned the MM2 than this way is to the people who don't. You can ask someone to give you the details of the Tempest (and don't worry about copyright law; that doesn't care if you borrow a friend's copy of the book or even just flip through it in a bookstore) - you can't ask someone to give you the details of the page of new material that would have been cut to have the Tempest reprinted.