When you want to strangle a player

Kraydak

First Post
I kind of feel for the bard. *Reducing* someone's attitude towards you if that isn't what you are trying (the Cuthbert cleric attacking the bard) requires both abysmal skill and poor rolling. On the other hand, a result of 18 is perfect for turning an indifferent target (Heironeous cleric) to a friendly one, while not changing the attitude of an unfriendly target (Cuthbert).

End result: Heironeous cleric calms down as normal, but the Cuthbert cleric *should not* have attacked the bard. Not unless you feel the Cuthbertian xenophobia is worth a *-14* or more on the check (at which point you should probably just drop them down to automatically hostile).
 

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Elf Witch

First Post
Tewligan said:
Oh, nonsense. Hell, everyone gets penalties now and then! Should Elf Witch make sure that characters are only rolling dice in optimal situations where no one will ever get penalized? The penalties were entirely appropriate - presumably, the player knew about the prejudices against his race. Plus, he just didn't roll as well. Maybe he needs to suck it up and not act like a pouty little kid because someone did something better than he did. Plus, he's the one who initially stopped the fight between the opposing clerics in the first place WITH his diplomacy - it sounds like he's pouting because someone else was able to do something in "his" scene. Screw that - if I had an adult who complained for TWO FREAKIN' HOURS about that, I'd tell him to stop being a dick and cool it if he was a good friend. If he wasn't a good friend, I'd just to tell him to get the hell outta the game.

Oh, and the complaining about gas money? Yeah, that's even more petty and ridiculous. I already don't like this guy at all.

He knew about the racial issues with St Cuthbert's church I got the idea from him for it. When we discussing his background he asked if there was racial intolerance in the human churches and I thought wow that would be a good idea. In his background he has had a couple of nasty encounters with clerics of St Cuthbert.

He also knows how bad the tension has been growing between the two churches. He also knows that he is in the Holy City where all the good and neutrul temples have their main temples. It is totally ruled by clerics and is its own country. It is also a human dominated city and that other races are considered second class citizens.

Right now he is not in the best situation to be able to be the face and the diplomat of the party. In this situation the cleric is in his element. Just like with the goblins the bard was in his.

I do think part of this is happening because of Rich's real life issues. He has a lot of pressure in his real life. He hates his job and was looking for another one when his wife was diagnosed with glaucoma, she is going blind. Now because he has fantastic insurance he does not feel he can leave his job.

His dad has senile dementia and all that is being dumped on him. His mom is totally helpless she does not know how to drive. So now he has to drive her shopping to the doctors plus drive his wife to work and on all her errands amd drive his dad around.

I think it is because of feeling stressed out having to drive everywhere for three people it has become an issue in the game. We all knew when we started the game that the only way for Chris to play was to play at his house. It was a non issue.

I noticed the timing of the issue became one when he started having to drive his family everywhere.

I am sympathetic to what he is going through.He is a passanger in the car to the game he is never asked to drive to give him a break. I think he is feeling stressed and maybe resentful over the pressures from his family but feels that he can't really complain so he has made the drive to the game the place to take out his frustrations.


There are two seperate issues here. Game and real life. We have been friends for 23 years so I think I can get him to see the real life issues and why he is having it.

The game issue is one I am not sure how to handle. First of all he really does not like the DnD system any of them. He likes the Hero system. So I know he gets frustrated with the game rules.

Second he likes to play characters that would be the hero of a book and I think lower level play and not being powerful right from the start frustrates him.

I know he is basing his bard on a character from a book he read this bard traveled by himself. defeating bandits, evil wizards and a dragon. I think he is frustrated that the rules don't allow him to play this type of character.
 

Treebore

First Post
Elf Witch said:
His wife loves the game. But she can't reign him in because that causes issues between them. She has tried to talk to him and point out when it is just the two of them cases where he is overreacting.


She is truly caught in the middle.

That sucks, She should have married a mature adult, instead of a kid in adult clothing. Tough situation and I certainly don't see a good way to resolve it. Waiting for the Bard player to grow up likely won't happen for ten or more years.
 

Elf Witch

First Post
Gentlegamer said:
The followers of Pelor are ape worshipers?

Yes. That is why their holy symbol is a banana. :D I realize I have the wrong word and now I know why my players were snickering when I used it in the game. :eek:
 

Treebore

First Post
Elf Witch said:
He knew about the racial issues with St Cuthbert's church I got the idea from him for it. When we discussing his background he asked if there was racial intolerance in the human churches and I thought wow that would be a good idea. In his background he has had a couple of nasty encounters with clerics of St Cuthbert.

He also knows how bad the tension has been growing between the two churches. He also knows that he is in the Holy City where all the good and neutrul temples have their main temples. It is totally ruled by clerics and is its own country. It is also a human dominated city and that other races are considered second class citizens.

Right now he is not in the best situation to be able to be the face and the diplomat of the party. In this situation the cleric is in his element. Just like with the goblins the bard was in his.

I do think part of this is happening because of Rich's real life issues. He has a lot of pressure in his real life. He hates his job and was looking for another one when his wife was diagnosed with glaucoma, she is going blind. Now because he has fantastic insurance he does not feel he can leave his job.

His dad has senile dementia and all that is being dumped on him. His mom is totally helpless she does not know how to drive. So now he has to drive her shopping to the doctors plus drive his wife to work and on all her errands amd drive his dad around.

I think it is because of feeling stressed out having to drive everywhere for three people it has become an issue in the game. We all knew when we started the game that the only way for Chris to play was to play at his house. It was a non issue.

I noticed the timing of the issue became one when he started having to drive his family everywhere.

I am sympathetic to what he is going through.He is a passanger in the car to the game he is never asked to drive to give him a break. I think he is feeling stressed and maybe resentful over the pressures from his family but feels that he can't really complain so he has made the drive to the game the place to take out his frustrations.


There are two seperate issues here. Game and real life. We have been friends for 23 years so I think I can get him to see the real life issues and why he is having it.

The game issue is one I am not sure how to handle. First of all he really does not like the DnD system any of them. He likes the Hero system. So I know he gets frustrated with the game rules.

Second he likes to play characters that would be the hero of a book and I think lower level play and not being powerful right from the start frustrates him.

I know he is basing his bard on a character from a book he read this bard traveled by himself. defeating bandits, evil wizards and a dragon. I think he is frustrated that the rules don't allow him to play this type of character.

OK, now I see he isn't simply immature, but feeling overwhelmed. I bet he just needs to really vent about all his pent up frustration over everything. He is right, he has to do what he has to do for his family, but that doesn't mean he can't have bad feelings about it. I bet being invited to vent to a third party about everything he has bottled up will help him a great deal.
 


Elf Witch

First Post
Kraydak said:
I kind of feel for the bard. *Reducing* someone's attitude towards you if that isn't what you are trying (the Cuthbert cleric attacking the bard) requires both abysmal skill and poor rolling. On the other hand, a result of 18 is perfect for turning an indifferent target (Heironeous cleric) to a friendly one, while not changing the attitude of an unfriendly target (Cuthbert).

End result: Heironeous cleric calms down as normal, but the Cuthbert cleric *should not* have attacked the bard. Not unless you feel the Cuthbertian xenophobia is worth a *-14* or more on the check (at which point you should probably just drop them down to automatically hostile).

He attacked the bard after he told the bard to get out of his sight or he would charge him with impeding an officer of the law in his duty and the bard said and I quote "make me". The cleric of Heironeus was already backing away at that point so the situation was defusing. The cleric of St Cuthbert was being hostile but if the bard had walked away with the other cleric then the situation would have ended.

The player also has issues with clerics of St Cuthbert and he said that there was no way his character would back away letting the cleric get the last word.

I actually enjoyed all this in game. I thought the bard played his character very well and stayed in character.

There was even an in character discussion between the cleric and the bard where the cleric thanked him and said that he had wanted to see that cleric knocked down a peg or to but he also cautioned the bard to be more careful in the future and not give the clerics of St Cuthbert any reason to arrest him.
 

Oryan77

Adventurer
Wow, sounds like the bard player is like several people I've DMed before. Notice I said, "Dmed before". Don't let 1 player cause you grief, it's totally not worth putting up with.

It sounds like you did everything just like any good DM would have done. Penalties to Diplomacy checks are perfectly fine (but I hope you are also giving bonuses to checks if the situation calls for it). The only thing I could suggest about handling that scenario is that I really suggest rolling for those kind of checks yourself without players seeing the results.

Players shouldn't know how well they are influencing an NPC; they should be told how the NPC reacts to their player trying to influence them and nothing more. When a player sees a high die roll, of course he's going to have expectations on how you should be roleplaying your NPCs. A player should never tell you how something in the world should work and letting them know skill checks like this gives them ammo to try and control the world around them. Rolling secretly also keeps players from arguing with you. I roll the players appraise, bluff, diplomacy, disguise, gather info, hide, intimidate, listen, move silently, search, sense motive, spot, & use rope checks myself behind my DM screen. In 5 years of DMing 3.5, I have never once had a player argue about what should have happened in my world. That's like arguing that Hilary Clinton should have won a debate because she obviously rolled a natural 20 :confused:

And complaining about driving 30 minutes and chipping in for gas is disrespectful & selfish. I wouldn't even game with a guy that asked me to chip in for gas. 30 minutes is nothing here in the Bay Area. I know it's a long time for smaller towns, but really, it's nothing. An hour drive commute to work is normal around here. One of my players drives an hour to game with us. We all buy each other drinks & snacks and are easy going about it. If your player whines about a couple of bucks in gas & 30 minutes of his time, he should be paying you to DM his butt. After all, you spend much more time than he does on providing him with some D&D fun.

I no longer put up with problem players like this. Any slight grief that a player causes me and I replace him with another player. My fun is more important to me than putting up with peoples crap. People think the game should be catered to them rather than just going with the flow and making the most fun out of it. This guy won't change, even if he does make a new character. And if he goes, his wife goes. You should stick to your guns and DM the way you want to DM if the other players enjoy it. Let him know he's causing you grief & don't cater to this guy. If he wants to pout, then he can leave the group. I would go ahead and start testing the waters for new players. Meet a few people, but don't settle on anyone. Look for only the best players. If you meet someone good, let them play with you guys. If the problem player still sticks around, then let him know you no longer want to DM him.

Seriously, from my own experiences....it sucks to switch players a lot, and it'll seem like all the work you did in the campaign is ruined. But it's not. I've gone through a lot of annoying players & players with conflicting playstyles as myself, but I finally have a good group. And D&D is so sweet when you're playing with laid back easy-going people!
 

Tewligan

First Post
Elf Witch said:
Yes. That is why their holy symbol is a banana. :D I realize I have the wrong word and now I know why my players were snickering when I used it in the game. :eek:
No, no, "primate" would also be appropriate. One of the definitions is:
dictionary.com said:
1. Ecclesiastical. an archbishop or bishop ranking first among the bishops of a province or country.
See? You can now legally smack down your players! I suggest a TPK to put 'em in their place. ;)
 

Kraydak

First Post
Elf Witch said:
Yes. That is why their holy symbol is a banana. :D I realize I have the wrong word and now I know why my players were snickering when I used it in the game. :eek:

By my dictionary, Primate *is* a religious title as well as a biological term.
 

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