Why 5E may be the last edition of D&D

[Jester David]

I also think that having ethnically diverse human characters would help the drow pill, but I think that having a diverse cast (especially with regards to human characters) would be beneficial in the first place.

Though, they could get away with nixing the drow in favor of having a tiefling character to fill the same hole.

Agreed.
Drow are good IF they have Drizzt. If not, then they should stay away. At least at first. They they can have a diverse cast and portray PoC respectfully, people will give the films some latitude over dark skinned evil folk.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It's just that the "svart" in the name of folklore's svartalfar is the only thing similar to D&D's drow aside from maybe their subterranean nature. So, people propping up svartalfar from folklore seem kinda either ill-informed or spinning the name fore a lot lore than it's worth.

Well, and they’re often bad guys, and they’re dark elves, and that enough for some people.

Agreed.
Drow are good IF they have Drizzt. If not, then they should stay away. At least at first. They they can have a diverse cast and portray PoC respectfully, people will give the films some latitude over dark skinned evil folk.

And even with Drizzt, only if they make it clear that he isnt the only one, and that it was a choice he made, not a genetic anomoly he inherited from his father. The one good minority (is, the “credit to his people) trope isn’t actually less bad than most of the stereotypical tropes we immediately recognize as problematic.

But I agree. Do the intro right, with a diverse cast and crew, and tell a compelling tale, and then things like drow can be done with less problems.

But also using Eberron or Dragonlance or a new world would make it easier to bypass some of the problems with drow.

 

[76512390ag12]

Joe Manganiello talked about producing a D&D series of Dragon Lance that was akin to Game of Thrones in scope and ambition.

Like the Shannara Chronicles

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Like the Shannara Chronicles

That’s a weird leap

 

[gyor]

There's more to the problem though. It's not like Nightcrawler is a black skinned sadomasochist who hates and enslaves all men. It's not just the color issue here. The entire race is very problematic. And trying to point to mythological origins doesn't work either because, while drow might look something like svartalfar, the whole femdom dominatrix thing is going to piss off pretty much everyone.

To be honest, I'm actually pretty shocked that drow have managed to stay in the game as long as they have. Even a cursory glance paints an incredibly bigoted picture. Hrm, man hating women who worship a black widow spider demon. Yeah, that's not going to trigger anyone at all. Then plaster in the color thing - good elves are white and evil elves are black - and you're just begging for a spanking.

I really, really don't care if Drow triggers anyone, this thread is absolutely getting absurd. They are a race elves, not a race of human beings. Drow have been part of D&D practically forever. And not all Drow are evil and if you know FR history not all surface elves are good, far, far from it, in some ways the surface elves are scarier then the Drow at times. I'll also point out that the whitest subrace elves of all are now the Shadar Kai, who are far, far, from being good, and in some ways are creepier then the Drow, although not as culturally violent.

And surface Elves aren't white, a few surface Elven subraces have darker skin tones. And some Drow are white, as in Albinos.

Btw triggered is supposed to refer to someone who has experience serious psychological trauma, aka PSTD, not just anyone who is offended on idealogically basis as has become fashionable in some circles. Like a Veteran might be triggered during a war movie, as in their PSTD triggers.

 

[oreofox]

I really, really don't care if Drow triggers anyone, this thread is absolutely getting absurd. They are a race elves, not a race of human beings. Drow have been part of D&D practically forever. And not all Drow are evil and if you know FR history not all surface elves are good, far, far from it, in some ways the surface elves are scarier then the Drow at times. I'll also point out that the whitest subrace elves of all are now the Shadar Kai, who are far, far, from being good, and in some ways are creepier then the Drow, although not as culturally violent.

And surface Elves aren't white, a few surface Elven subraces have darker skin tones. And some Drow are white, as in Albinos.

Btw triggered is supposed to refer to someone who has experience serious psychological trauma, aka PSTD, not just anyone who is offended on idealogically basis as has become fashionable in some circles. Like a Veteran might be triggered during a war movie, as in their PSTD triggers.

You aren't taking into account everyone who knows nothing about D&D, FR, or Drow, and will see a dark colored race (doesn't matter if they are human or elven or something else) being evil bastards as something extremely racist. Yes, not all drow are evil and not all surface elves are good and white-skinned. I can even see someone looking too into something consider orcs and goblins and other "enemy races who are all chaotic evil and yet haven't wiped themselves out" being rather racist as the "good races" are the civilized light-skinned races while the "evil races" are non-pale-skinned races who live in tribal societies and are considered primitive evil creatures who should be killed on sight.

It doesn't matter whether we know FR history or not. The typical person who would go to the movies or watch trailers wouldn't know about anything you said, and would cry out "RACISM!!!" and go on a rage campaign to get everyone involved with this movie lynched, terminated from their jobs, and never get another job again.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

We don't need a Drizzt clone for a good drow character. This can be a Eilistrae's follower. And we can add albine drows in the evil faction. Other option is some dark-skin humans among the hero group fighting against the slave-trader drows. Maybe some years after Drizzt there is a religious schism in the drow society, because drows start to notice the difference between a true leader and a toxic boss, and loyalty has to be for somebody who respect the dignity of subordinates. In the hands of the right writters the drows could be used for a fantasy version of peplum(sword-and-sandals) movies where the atrocious paganism is being replaced by a humanist new religion. And some communities evil cults are forfidden now, but really the majority doesn't notice they are still being manipulated by secret lodges of evil deities' clerics. creating a feeling of paranoia. Or maybe drows rebell against Lolth's new plans about a next step in the evolution of the race, ruled by a mind-controller parasite arachnid.

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Before a D&D 6th edition we should see a d20 Modern 2.0. and this may be radically distint becuase will be designed for diferent modern-age genres like superheroes, mechas or war-action and for adaptation of different Hasbro lines (Transformers, G.I.Joe, Visionaries, Inhumanoids, Zoids, superheroes, etc..) and maybe for the ultimate multi-genre d20 system for all genres (fantasy, sci-fi, gothic-punk horror, superheroes..).

 

[Zardnaar]

We don't need a Drizzt clone for a good drow character. This can be a Eilistrae's follower. And we can add albine drows in the evil faction. Other option is some dark-skin humans among the hero group fighting against the slave-trader drows. Maybe some years after Drizzt there is a religious schism in the drow society, because drows start to notice the difference between a true leader and a toxic boss, and loyalty has to be for somebody who respect the dignity of subordinates. In the hands of the right writters the drows could be used for a fantasy version of peplum(sword-and-sandals) movies where the atrocious paganism is being replaced by a humanist new religion. And some communities evil cults are forfidden now, but really the majority doesn't notice they are still being manipulated by secret lodges of evil deities' clerics. creating a feeling of paranoia. Or maybe drows rebell against Lolth's new plans about a next step in the evolution of the race, ruled by a mind-controller parasite arachnid.

---

Before a D&D 6th edition we should see a d20 Modern 2.0. and this may be radically distint becuase will be designed for diferent modern-age genres like superheroes, mechas or war-action and for adaptation of different Hasbro lines (Transformers, G.I.Joe, Visionaries, Inhumanoids, Zoids, superheroes, etc..) and maybe for the ultimate multi-genre d20 system for all genres (fantasy, sci-fi, gothic-punk horror, superheroes..).

Na they will avoid Drow entirely. It'll have a gruff Dwarf, haughty elf, ugly half orc or something have a tick the box diverse cast, tick the suitably generic boxes quest, likely involving a Dragon and odds are it will make the Warcraft movie and Conan of the 80's look good. Throw in some bad CGI, hammy acting, and an annoying sidekick with perhaps a Halfling in the R2-D2 role.

They'll have to fly a X-Win erm young Dragon down a canyon to fire the Ring of Doom into a Thermal Invisibility port to blow up Aceraks Inconvenience Star. Perhaps an emo Tiefling somewhere to make the film "edgy". It will also have to be part one of a new universe so some sort of open ended finish at the end. Probably won't matter anyway due to the movie crashing and burning.

 

[schnee]

And even with Drizzt, only if they make it clear that he isnt the only one, and that it was a choice he made, not a genetic anomoly he inherited from his father. The one good minority (is, the “credit to his people) trope isn’t actually less bad than most of the stereotypical tropes we immediately recognize as problematic.

Haha - I just realized how awful this all is.

No, *this* dark one, this token, is alright. Because he rejected their dark people culture, which is fatally flawed.

And (let's not leave anyone out) the culture is that way because it's run by man-hating women.

Christ. The optics on this are almost Stormfront fodder.

I really, really don't care if Drow triggers anyone, this thread is absolutely getting absurd. They are a race elves, not a race of human beings. Drow have been part of D&D practically forever. And not all Drow are evil and if you know FR history not all surface elves are good, far, far from it, in some ways the surface elves are scarier then the Drow at times. I'll also point out that the whitest subrace elves of all are now the Shadar Kai, who are far, far, from being good, and in some ways are creepier then the Drow, although not as culturally violent.

The thing is, whether you see it as a problem or not isn't relevant. You don't get to speak for other people.

Tried reading old sword & sorcery stuff lately? I have, for the first time in 25+ years, and, as much as I loved it back then I can't recommend most of it to young new players. Dying Earth, Lankhmar, Conan...just too much wince-inducing 'well it was different back then' stuff to wade through. And, even when some things aren't intentionally racist, there's enough real racist crap alongside of it that it all becomes questionable. And, the culture at large has had enough of the 'dark-skinned nasty villain' trope in all kinds of fiction forever.

I have really mixed feelings about this. I'm sentimental for what I grew up on, but it has tremendous flaws and baggage. Most growing up now would find it the characterizations of the people that resemble them the most a slap in the face.

So, I'm OK with it being retconned for newer audiences. It's ultimately their culture now, they should make it their own.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You aren't taking into account everyone who knows nothing about D&D, FR, or Drow, and will see a dark colored race (doesn't matter if they are human or elven or something else) being evil bastards as something extremely racist. Yes, not all drow are evil and not all surface elves are good and white-skinned. I can even see someone looking too into something consider orcs and goblins and other "enemy races who are all chaotic evil and yet haven't wiped themselves out" being rather racist as the "good races" are the civilized light-skinned races while the "evil races" are non-pale-skinned races who live in tribal societies and are considered primitive evil creatures who should be killed on sight.

It doesn't matter whether we know FR history or not. The typical person who would go to the movies or watch trailers wouldn't know about anything you said, and would cry out "RACISM!!!" and go on a rage campaign to get everyone involved with this movie lynched, terminated from their jobs, and never get another job again.

I mean, no. They’d just criticize it strongly and call people out. But if it’s more fun to pretend they’re a wild murder mob, go off I guess