Why Knock Someone Prone Anymore?

[JohnSnow]

Yes except that wizards can knock someone, many targets actually, prone at first level at range 10: Icy Terrain.

It doesn't specifically say so, but there is NO mechanical reason why it shouldn't work against a flier. Of course, your GM may rule that the power's intent, i.e. icy ground, prevents it from working unless the opponents are standing on the ground, but RAW that would be a houserule.

Flavorwise, it actually makes sense. The wizard issues a blast of icy air that would, naturally, make it hard for a flying creature to flap it's wings.

However, the secondary effect of "difficult terrain" doesn't matter because "Creatures are not hampered by difficult terrain when flying." (PHB, p. 284).

So you can knock them prone. Of course, by the time flight is common, it's pretty unlikely you're still holding on to "icy terain."

 

[JohnSnow]

Except that you are starting prone. Stand up (move action) Shift (move action) Charge (standard action) doesn't work. Unless your a Kobold that is.

I thought we were talking about the guy who knocked someone prone, not the prone guy.

Round 1
A moves in (move) and uses a power that knocks B prone (standard)
B stands up (move) and shifts away (move) - 1 square between.

Round 2
A shifts away (move - 2 squares between) and charges B (standard).

That's what I was talking about. Of course, assuming he hadn't already used it, it would be smart for A to do this:

A moves adjacent to B (move action) and uses Spinning Sweep (Standard - Fighter Attack 1).

Then A's rogue buddy goes to town. Piercing strike would be a good ability here...

 

[Lacyon]

On another note, it seems silly to "stand up" while falling (if you are falling an incredibly long distance and take more than one turn to fall, this could be necessary). What do you guys think on this?

Knocked prone while flying -> crashing. Personally I think crashing replaces the prone condition until you actually hit the ground, at which point you are prone on the ground.

In other words, if you save yourself from the crash, you need not spend another move action to "stand up" in midair.

(I hope I read your question right)

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

Knocked prone while flying -> crashing. Personally I think crashing replaces the prone condition until you actually hit the ground, at which point you are prone on the ground.

In other words, if you save yourself from the crash, you need not spend another move action to "stand up" in midair.

(I hope I read your question right)

That makes more sense, I had forgotten about that flying section in the DMG. I was thinking that the stand up action was the "Halting a Descent" type thing. 100 squares in a round though eh? Thats more than I would've assumed but I suppose that makes flying pretty dangerous unless your REALLY high up.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

That makes more sense, I had forgotten about that flying section in the DMG. I was thinking that the stand up action was the "Halting a Descent" type thing. 100 squares in a round though eh? Thats more than I would've assumed but I suppose that makes flying pretty dangerous unless your REALLY high up.

Hmm ... 500 feet in 6 seconds, eh?

9.8m/s^2 over 6 seconds gives you a final velocity of 58.8m/s ~= 194.04ft/s. That's looking about right, but I have a feeling that 500 ft in 6 seconds is still going to be conservative.

Note: Since I'm not using calculus, this is going to be higher than actual (theoretical) distance traveled. It should be pretty close though, with only 6 iterations.
After 1 second: approx. 9.8 m ~= 32.34 ft.
After 2 seconds: 9.8m + 19.6m = 29.4m ~= 97.02 ft.
After 3 seconds: 29.4m + 29.4m = 58.8m ~= 194.04 ft.
After 4 seconds: 58.8m + 39.2m = 98.0m ~= 323.4 ft.
After 5 seconds: 98.0m + 49.0m = 147.0m ~= 485.1 ft.
After 6 seconds: 147.0m + 58.8m = 205.8m ~= 679.14 ft.

Yup! Falling 500 ft. in 6 seconds is conservative, assuming you don't hit terminal velocity before 6 seconds. At least for an inanimate ball. You'd probably be flailing about to try to slow your fall and right yourself, so 500 ft. is probably pretty close, though still slow.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

That makes more sense, I had forgotten about that flying section in the DMG. I was thinking that the stand up action was the "Halting a Descent" type thing. 100 squares in a round though eh? Thats more than I would've assumed but I suppose that makes flying pretty dangerous unless your REALLY high up.

Oh, to heck with it. I'm bored, so I did the calculus. Now hopefully I did it right If anyone's interested I can provide my calculations, especially if you think I've made an error. It's entirely possible, as I haven't really done anything with calculus in a couple years.

So, I ended up with the position function:
P(t) = (-4.9/3) t^3 + C, where C is your starting height. Basically, (4.9/3)t^3 is how far you've fallen in t seconds (measured in meters).

Plugging in 6 for t, you get P(6) = 352.8 m = 1147.5 ft.

So, I guess my first post was wrong - you fall a lot farther than 500 feet in 6 seconds. Again, assuming your fall isn't slowed by air resistance, and that you don't hit terminal velocity in less than 6 seconds. Gravity's powerful, man!

Note: this is also assuming your world has normal earth gravity I believe hong would classify that as thinking too hard about fantasy though

EDIT:I messed up on these calculations, started with acceleration = 9.8t instead of just 9.8. Surgoshan has the correct calculations a few posts down. Sorry folks. The good news is, the correct calculations show you fall farther than 500 feet in 6 seconds

 

[Grantor]

Of course, you could switch the point of view.

What if a monster had a power that could make a character prone? Would it be fair to hit by the monster when you tried to do anything useful?

That's what 3E was like. If you were prone inside of a monster's reach, either you better have a lot of hp to take the hit or you were pinned. Very common for a character brought out of negatives immediately after being hit. Sure, you ain't gonna die, but you can't actually do anything interesting or you will be immediately back to negatives.

If the rules for being prone are going to pin someone, they could be used against players. Being totally paralyzed (situationally, in this case) completely sucks as a player. Might as well go home for the night.

4E took several steps to adjust this, all of which resulted in the state of "prone" being something that is safely applied at heroic levels. (Compare to Immobilized, which comes at paragon levels).

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

Thats good to know, I'll bring that up if anyone complains. Also interesting to note is that, if you fall from around 108 squares (the max one turn damage for someone under the effect of a fly spell) your going to take about 250 damage (exactly if you use the "quick" rule). If you actually roll it out it should average around 275 damage. Either way, this is going to slaughter a level 30 con specced defender. At 174(6*29)+15+28= 217 health hes going to be out cold and dying. I like this a lot better than 3.5 when falling at high levels was basically a nuisance due to higher health totals and max of 20d6 regardless of height.

 

[Surgoshan]

Acceleration is 9.8 m/s^2. So assuming an initial downward velocity of v=0 and setting the initial height as the zero reference.

a=9.8
v=9.8t
y=(1/2)9.8*t^2

So after six seconds you have .5*9.8*36=176.4 meters is approximately 579 feet, or ~116 squares. That's 58d10, or an average of 58*5.5=319 damage on average.

Of course, in order to reach your flier to knock him prone from that height, you'll have to be 116 squares up, too, and he might be able to knock you prone.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Acceleration is 9.8 m/s^2. So assuming an initial downward velocity of v=0 and setting the initial height as the zero reference.

a=9.8
v=9.8t
y=(1/2)9.8*t^2

So after six seconds you have .5*9.8*36=176.4 meters is approximately 579 feet, or ~116 squares. That's 58d10, or an average of 58*5.5=319 damage on average.

Of course, in order to reach your flier to knock him prone from that height, you'll have to be 116 squares up, too, and he might be able to knock you prone.

Darn it, I did mess up. I started with a = 9.8t, so I essentially went one step too far.

Surgoshan has it right (or at least more right than me). But still, you're falling more than 500 ft in 6 seconds. I'll edit my first post so no one gets confused.