WotC puts a stop to online sales of PDFs

[mach1.9pants]

WotC was selling something through a specific media.

WotC decided to stop selling.

Where's the beef?

Well, you might have no problem with it but there is 20 odd pages of beef here, 22 at WotC boards and a similar number on RPG.net. So there is beef, not just the fact that people can't get the ever so useful 4E PDFs or out-of-print older edition PDFs but also the manner in which it happened, no announcement just gone.

Pirating is wrong but this won't stop it. If they never sell another PDF again Complete Arcane etc will be on the torrents within a week of release. This is only annoying those that want to buy a PDF.

 

[Waylander the Slayer]

This is just a business decision, inline with WOTC's recent trend to bring all their IPs in house and maximize their value to the company. I am sure within the next couple of weeks, all the 4E stuff will be available to DDI subscribers at a discounted cost. The older stuff might not show up, however, as they might be considered as direct competition to 4E.

 

[Xyxox]

Anything is of course possible. But if there is money to be made of the old pdf's, it would be very uncharacteristic of WotC to not sell them.

Cheers

My point is, it is my belief that WotC has determined 4E is competing against prior versions available via PDF downloads, thus the removal of PDF availability makes this a twofer for WotC. They (incorrectly) believe this will help their fight against piracy and they believe the self competition will go away. They use the arguably legitimate argument about piracy (regardless of teh fact that such an approach will only serve to punicsh their good customers) and say nothing at all about the older material.

If I'm right, we'll never again see 3.xE or older material legally available electronically.

 

[DaveMage]

WotC was selling something through a specific media.

WotC decided to stop selling.

Where's the beef?

I think that if Wizards had provided warning (say, 30 days notice), there would be no beef (or at least, a lot less).

But they didn't. So there's beef.

Mmmm....beef.

 

[Scribble]

WotC started doing pdfs in house long ago, I think it was even before 3e was anounced. They were super cheap to start, something like $3 each then.

They then spun it off to be run by an outside company still using their ESD format with special software for generating big pdfs.

Later it went on to rpgnow as straight pdfs.

Originally they said 3e pdfs would come on after a period of time but they did not show up, just the old edition ones with later scans being outsourced to be done quickly and cheaply leading to large file sizes and poor OCR.

I'm a little fuzzy on the interim period after that first outside distributing company stopped. I think they went off of rpgnow for a while and then onto DTRPG with 3.5e ones coming on with DRM and full hardcopy cost. Later DTRPG and RPGNOW formed OBS and it was on both. WotC eventually took the DRM off but kept the full cost price point. Later 4e ones were sold with I think it was 25% off cover price, about $25 for each of the core books.

At some point the old edition pdfs were available on paizo as well with different prices and not a complete overlap of catalogues.

Voadam, I was talking about their current edition stuff. I guess I wasn't clear. I wasn't talking about someone objecting to PDFs in general, just objecting to their sales in adition to the regular product. The 3e stuff took a while to get into the market, wasn't a full line, and the price was greater then the market seemed to say it should be.

Based on that, it seems to me the current edition being sold in pdf form was always something someone objected to, and it was finally stoped. Or rather then something somone specificaly objected to, it was something whomever makes the ultimate choice, was wary of to begin with, and while giving it a shot, was still ultimately ready to pull the plug if certain things occured.

I could be completely wrong, I have no inside info, it just seems that way to me.

I think the dissapearance of the old edition pdfs was more a result of it being easier to make a general change, rather then just certain aspects.

 

[Caerin]

Making a copy of a PDF is much the same as using a photocopier to make a copy of a book. Under normal circumstances, you have the right to reproduce (under fair use) and distribute 10% of the document, or one chapter, whichever is shorter, or 20% of the document if it does not contain chapters. If you copy more than that, you're in violation of the law, not because you've stolen anything but because you have copied more than you were allowed to. If you make a copy of a book, and leave that copy lying around on a desk, and someone takes it without asking, that would be theft.

While I agree with the other parts of your message not copied, I do not believe this to be entirely accurate under US law. Fair use (17 USC 107) does not provide percentages or hard-and-fast rules for what is or is not a fair use. There are fair use guidelines which do describe percentages in this manner, but those guidelines are not the law and are not safe harbors. Fair use is decided on a case-by-case basis using the four factors set forth in the law.

However, the law generally covers public rather than private uses (ie., public display, public distribution). You can very likely make a copy of your own legally acquired book without infringing in most situations, provided that you do not redistribute that copy (which may or may not be infringing depending on the fair use analysis or other claimed exemption). Case law has thus far mostly supported the concepts of space shifting and time shifting. This does not necessarily apply to digital copies; the anti-circumvention clause of the DMCA prohibits you from circumventing technological protection measures even when they otherwise might be legal. Additionally, software backup has its own exemption in the law in 17 USC 117.

At any rate, this is an Internet forum and anyone reading should research the matter and decide for his or her self. ^_^

For myself, I have always purchased both the physical book and the pdf. I tend to work late, and I generally purchase the pdf as soon as it's released. I was planning on doing so with Arcane Power, so I sincerely hope that the pdf will be released as originally scheduled. It's a slim hope at this point.

 

[Voadam]

For Reference

From the current RPGNOW FAQ

What do I do if I accidentally delete or lose my PDF?

We allow up to 5 replacement downloads of our products for each purchase. If you need to re-download a product you have purchased for any reason, simply log onto your account, go to "My Account", and click on the order you need to download. This will take you to a page that will have the links at the bottom to re-download your products. If for some reason you need more than 5 downloads, please let us know using the "Contact Us" link from the home page and we can make necessary adjustments.

But then later under backing up pdfs

How do I back up my eBooks?
You can back up watermarked eBooks simply by copying them to a secure location.

Back up your DRM-protected eBooks using the Backup button in "My Bookshelf" in Acrobat Reader. This will copy your eBooks to another location such as a hard drive, file server or CD. You will not be able to view these eBooks from another PC or Macintosh unless it has also been activated under your account in the Adobe DRM Activator.

If you lose your eBooks, we generally attempt to replace them based on circumstances. We reserve the right not to replace lost books. So please back up your books!

Emphasis added.

 

[malraux]

Well, I'm late to the party.

Man this really pisses me off. I loved grabbing old edition books and adventures to mine for ideas. The quality of the scans was sometimes so-so, but the price was great, I didn't have to deal with ebay or shopworn books at some out of the way gamestore. I do wish I had had a chance to grab a few books from my wishlist first.

Since i haven't even seen any of the pirated pdfs since the core rule books a year ago, for someone who has, are the pirated books out now mostly taken from the legit sites, or are they more like the leaked rule books, because I don't see the leaked file issue going away any time soon.

 

[Arivendel]

No, ceasing to sell 1st & 2nd Ed PDFs does nothing to stop pirating of 4E material. The only logical reason is that they don't want people playing older editions (spending $ on them) as they see it as eroding 4E sales. It costs them nothing to have people sell older PDFs and makes them $. The only reason to stop it is because someone doesn't like the current 4E sales numbers and in a misguided move decided to eliminate some competition.

That was not my point at all, quoting me out of context will not validate your point and it actually brings a lot of harm to your argument which i will explain later, my point was that throughout this thread people have been considering that the reason behind WotC actions is due to the PHB 2 Leak, Piracy lawsuit. My point was that rather than that being the case, it is possible that WotC just became aware of Paizo's/RPGnow redownload policy, a policy which could very well be the reason for this whole thing, after all like i said it is possible WotC contract refer to selling single pdfs if thats the case then the redownload policy could be interpreted as illegally copying and distributing their IP since people are technically getting a "buy 1 get 4+ free" deal and thats 4+ instances in which WotC make no profit.

Now for your argument, your argument is that since 4e is low in numbers WotC is going to cut its other cash cows in order to increase the numbers of their newest cash cow? ok i can see how you can get that idea but that is far from the "only logical reason" for them to do this.

Is it really so hard to believe that RPGnow/Paizo might have gone and implemented a policy without consulting WotC thinking that it wasnt a big deal, WotC noticed and decided to pull out ALL of their products until they can review the problem with their legal team because this wouldnt be only 4e piracy but rather D&D piracy? That also sounds like a very logical and plausible reason as to why the pdf's where pulled out.

Of course this is the internet, reason isnt required

 

[tomBitonti]

Well, I like to look on the bright side of things.

My collection of D&D material that goes all the way back to the white boxed set has certainly increased in value.

LOL

I'm with you. Lots of boxes of stuff that I have is now worth a bit more than before.

Peace

TomB