www.play-board-games.com blogs about How DnD 4th Edition is like a board game

jbear

First Post
The question is - do these matter in the same way that Boardwalk has higher rent because it's on the beach, or because of its location on the board?

There's a way of playing the game that puts the weight on the statblock and removes it from the fictional content. Here are some examples:
  • A black pudding can't squeeze through cracks under doors because the rules for squeezing say they can't; since ogres can't do it, neither can the black pudding.
  • The only way to disarm someone is to bring them to 0 hp or have a power that explicitly says the creature is disarmed, even if you are standing on the weapon or you can control the creature's mind.
  • Come and Get It pulls creatures into bad positions regardless of any fictional considerations - archers jump off fortified towers or drop prone.
  • An ogre isn't level 8 because it's big and strong and raised to fight; it's level 8 because it's level 8. It could be level 1 or level 30; the fiction doesn't map.

It's not necessary to play the game this way, but it's a valid style.

I've only played Descent once, but I seem to recall that line-of-sight was very important. In Descent you can't place a mirror in a corner and expand your line-of-sight. That's what I would consider a board-gamey rule; even though the fiction supports it, the rules don't, so you can't do it.

These aren't good or bad things in and of themselves; the question is how they support the metagame goals of play itself. Do you want to put an emphasis on exploring the world? Running dangerous fights for heroes? Challenging political or social beliefs? Focusing on strategic or tactical play?

I think there's a lot to say about how one could run 4E for different styles/metagame goals of play and which techniques would support those goals better. For example, if one of your goals is to explore the world, you probably won't want to raise or lower the levels of monsters (save where world-appropriate - e.g. young and the infirm), while if you're playing a game focusing on "premise" you probably will want to raise or lower monster levels in order to provide appropriate adversity while getting the colour right.
I haven't run into this kind of problem with any rules set I've used. But I tend to run around problems instead of into them. I might have had to look up squeezing rules for a Black Pudding in a system that is explicit about that kind of thing. That would be an interference during play so I'd make it up. In 4e squeezing seems to say that it can't be done which doesn't fit with the fiction. No mention of a special ability in its stat block for me to point at and say specific over general (which could be solved by customising the monster with a quick slash of my pen). Or I could not bother as well and just describe what happens as it plays out in my mind. Which is what I do. But that is nothing new.

Where mechanics meets limitations, it doesn't mean the fiction should. I know the mechanics well enough as they are so streamlined that I can make a ruling how something the rules don't cover that my players come up with should be resolved. To tell you the truth many of those ideas have actually been inspired by you, from your thread Sandboxing in the Nentir Vale.

Is it an explicit or even implicit part of the system? You seem to have found so, but you get to game far more often than me I fear. I haven't found it personally. I just have a feeling that I don't need to look rules up in books any more.

Monster stats... great. streamlined, easy to read/use. But monsters are people too. I'm not going to limit my goblins to hurling javelins and sticking people with spears just because that is all that appears on their stat block. But heck, it's a great place to start.
 

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Scribble

First Post
I don' know... the way I see it the best part about a TTRPG is that the human element can actually fix stuff that seems weird. I'm not a computer- I'm not bound by the code.

I don't think it's possible to pre-think everything that could be done so really even if you're coming from a "fiction first" direction you're just coming from one guy's fiction first direction. It might be vastly different from my own ideas, so I'm going to end up having to "fix" it anyway.

The "fiction drives the rules games" tend to be just bulky in my opinion, requiring me to jump through a lot of hoops that I could have just avoided.

Give me something that makes the rules work, and as a human being, if the fiction seems weird at the table when faced with some random situation... I'll change it up.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
I haven't run into this kind of problem with any rules set I've used.

I don't think it's a problem in general, just that it could get in the way of certain metagame goals. For other goals it's a good thing.

Where mechanics meets limitations, it doesn't mean the fiction should. I know the mechanics well enough as they are so streamlined that I can make a ruling how something the rules don't cover that my players come up with should be resolved. To tell you the truth many of those ideas have actually been inspired by you, from your thread Sandboxing in the Nentir Vale.

Is it an explicit or even implicit part of the system? You seem to have found so, but you get to game far more often than me I fear. I haven't found it personally. I just have a feeling that I don't need to look rules up in books any more.

I always saw 4E as more "squishy" than other people, I think - like letting PCs use Intimidate as an attack action to deal HP (psychic) damage, or letting PCs use Dominate to disarm. I don't think either view is explicit or even implicit, but there is a big dividing line in terms of how people approach the game.

I think examining those techniques and how they affect play is worth it.

I don' know... the way I see it the best part about a TTRPG is that the human element can actually fix stuff that seems weird. I'm not a computer- I'm not bound by the code.

I don't think it's possible to pre-think everything that could be done so really even if you're coming from a "fiction first" direction you're just coming from one guy's fiction first direction. It might be vastly different from my own ideas, so I'm going to end up having to "fix" it anyway.

The "fiction drives the rules games" tend to be just bulky in my opinion, requiring me to jump through a lot of hoops that I could have just avoided.

Give me something that makes the rules work, and as a human being, if the fiction seems weird at the table when faced with some random situation... I'll change it up.

One point of my "fiction first" hack was to put in space where the DM had to make judgement calls. Ignoring, for the moment, the DM advice I put in there (which has more to do with other aspects of the game), that space is supposed to introduce the human element - to allow each group to put their own spin on the game.

Does it make sense to you that you could disarm a foe in this situation? How about this one? Does it make sense to you that a black pudding could slip through cracks? What about a gelatinous cube?

You could even go other places - Does it make sense that you can heal someone with a kind word? Does the relationship matter?

Each DM can answer those questions in their own way. How you answer those questions can reinforce your metagame goals; in my case I wanted more attention to the fiction, but since that space has been opened up (not that it wasn't there before, but I tried to make it explicit), it could be to reinforce the fact that the PCs are heroes, or to focus more on exploration, or tactical exploitation of the battlefield, or any other goal.
 

Gort

Explorer
*shrug* I'd let a black pudding squeeze through cracks. I'd ban Come and Get It if it bugged me that much.

An ogre is level 8 because that's a decent level for it - it's not a Flying Monster From Beyond, and it's not quite at the Threat To The Entire Kingdom level, but it's pretty tough for a town to deal with.

Oh, I see. You don't like that I didn't have to spend an hour creating the ogre myself from a bunch of rules that may or may not actually produce a usable monster at the end of it.

Sorry, I'd far rather spend that hour coming up with plot, and simply pick something usable out of a book. By high level 3.5 I was more-or-less just picking the attacks, AC, saves and HP for my monsters because the monster building rules were so time-consuming.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
Oh, I see.

No, I don't think you do. I'm talking about creating a lacuna that requires the DM to make judgement calls, introducing a creative element to the game. Can a black pudding squeeze through cracks? It's up to the DM. How does Come and Get It work in this situation? Again, it's up to the DM.

This means that the DM has to make principled decisions, not relying on fiat (i.e arbitrary decisions), based on whatever metagame goals the group has.

It has nothing to do with prep time. I just finished a 4E game and I spent 10-15 minutes in prep, all plot based.
 

Aegeri

First Post
A black pudding can't squeeze through cracks under doors because the rules for squeezing say they can't; since ogres can't do it, neither can the black pudding.

Some oozes have such powers though, but this edition no longer decides that if you are X you automatically can do Y. A black pudding might be able to work like this, but it cannot do so in combat because it may not be fast enough or able enough to do so.

The only way to disarm someone is to bring them to 0 hp or have a power that explicitly says the creature is disarmed, even if you are standing on the weapon or you can control the creature's mind.

I agree with this, because otherwise it turns dominate into a ridiculous save or die that's terrible for the game.

I don't think we really need to do this again though.

Come and Get It pulls creatures into bad positions regardless of any fictional considerations - archers jump off fortified towers or drop prone.

No it can't. For one thing, the forced movement has to be legal (You can't pull enemies through blocking terrain) and you can't pull an enemy unless it could legally occupy a square (so off a tower isn't possible with come and get it). You can only pull via forced movement something vertically if it is flying (special exemption).

An ogre isn't level 8 because it's big and strong and raised to fight; it's level 8 because it's level 8. It could be level 1 or level 30; the fiction doesn't map.

I'm failing to see the point here exactly. Some creatures are more threatening than others, just like PCs different creatures can have a range of abilities and power.
 

pemerton

Legend
LostSoul, as always thanks for the interesting and engaging replies!

There's a way of playing the game that puts the weight on the statblock and removes it from the fictional content. Here are some examples:
Before I get to the examples, let me say that I agree with this, but that's also why in my earlier post I raised the issue of what actually counts as "fully playing the game"? If you take page 42 of the DMG seriously, and also the text for the Acrobatics skill in the PHB (to which I first had my attention drawn by your suggestion that a Rogue dive into the maw of a purple worm to rescue a swallowed magic-user - great stuff!), then playing the game requires having regard to the fictional context. Play which has regard only to the stat block, and which therefore disregards p 42, and which privileges Athletics over Acrobatics as a skill (because the Athletics rules have stats in them), can ignore the fiction, I agree.

Maybe the game is to some extent incoherent in its rules - presenting such tight stat blocks that they create a strong reason no to depart from them (hence your desire to rewrite parts of the game to expressly create the lacuna for GM input), but also presenting open-ended fiction-first rules like p 42 and Acrobatics.

Of course, even if p 42 and Acrobatics make the fiction matter in some cases, they don't make it matter in all cases. Which brings me to the examples, and some thoughts on them.

A black pudding can't squeeze through cracks under doors because the rules for squeezing say they can't; since ogres can't do it, neither can the black pudding.
This is an interesting one. The rules for Oozes describe them as "amorphous", and the flavour text for Ochre Jellies says that they can slip under doors and pour through narrow cracks, and that they can't climb steps, but none of this is reflected in the stat block - whereas other stat blocks do give special squeezing powers (like Larva mages). And while the PHB rules for squeezing give the GM a lot of discretion for Medium or smaller creatures, this is not the case for Large creatures like Jellies and Puddings.

On balance, this seems to me to be a case of poorly written stats, where the stats don't give full effect to the desingers' intentions. Alternatively, it could be that the keyword "ooze", in describing oozes as amorphous and giving them special squeezing privileges, hasn't quite said everything that it should have about oozes going under doors and the like. Either way, I'd have no problem letting a black pudding - "like a massive pool of tar" - slide under a door. And I don't think my players could really accuse me of breaking the rules in doing so.

The only way to disarm someone is to bring them to 0 hp or have a power that explicitly says the creature is disarmed, even if you are standing on the weapon or you can control the creature's mind.
This one I'm not sure about. I don't see why a disarm isn't possible under p 42, or using domination. I've followed the Dominate and Disarm thread, and on the whole am more sympathetic to those who think that it is permissible (after all, "drop held item" is a free action - PHB p 289 - that can be performed at will). The real solution seems to me to be permitting the creature or PC who is disarmed in this way to perform non-power manoeuvres based on DMG p 42.

Come and Get It pulls creatures into bad positions regardless of any fictional considerations - archers jump off fortified towers or drop prone.
Aegeri has replied to this to an extent, but I agree that it is an issue. The fighter PC in my group has this, and narrating it is not all that straightforward. I'm still thinking about ways of handling it.

An ogre isn't level 8 because it's big and strong and raised to fight; it's level 8 because it's level 8. It could be level 1 or level 30; the fiction doesn't map

<snip>

if one of your goals is to explore the world, you probably won't want to raise or lower the levels of monsters (save where world-appropriate - e.g. young and the infirm), while if you're playing a game focusing on "premise" you probably will want to raise or lower monster levels in order to provide appropriate adversity while getting the colour right.
I'm mostly in the latter camp - monsters are colour, and I adjust levels if I have to. However, part of the colour I am looking for in my campaign is "the story of D&D", and that puts limits on how far you can vary levels - eg once you're paragon you're not really meant to be dealing with orcs anymore, unless they're from Gruumsh's plane!

While I agree with you that 4e can be used for a variety of play goals, when it comes to monster level I think the most natural way of making sense of the level system in 4e is that it does, by default, push games into the story of D&D.

I always saw 4E as more "squishy" than other people, I think - like letting PCs use Intimidate as an attack action to deal HP (psychic) damage, or letting PCs use Dominate to disarm. I don't think either view is explicit or even implicit, but there is a big dividing line in terms of how people approach the game.

<snip>

You could even go other places - Does it make sense that you can heal someone with a kind word? Does the relationship matter?

Each DM can answer those questions in their own way.
On all these issues I've been too influenced by your posts back in the early 4e days to have an independent view! I don't think I've yet had a PC use Intimidate to do psychic damage, but I've had a PC use Religion to get combat advantage against a Wight. I haven't thought about using Diplomacy to heal, but that's a very interesting idea - I think the relationship should matter, affecting the DC (moderate vs hard). The action would have to be a standard one, to preserve action economy balance. To balance it against healing powers, I think that the PC using diplomacy might have to take some psychic damage if the attempt fails - they are gutted as they realise the relationship doesn't mean the same thing to the other person, or at least doesn't have the same power to drive them, as it does the would-be healing PC.

This means that the DM has to make principled decisions, not relying on fiat (i.e arbitrary decisions), based on whatever metagame goals the group has.
In my view the biggest gap in the 4e rules is advice on how to use p 42, and the skill challenge rules more generally, to achieve various play goals in various contexts - and in particular, how these parts of the game are meant to interact with the combat mechanics. It's the absence of that sort of material that (for me, at least) gives the biggest feeling of incoherence of the sort I talked about above.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
Some oozes have such powers though, but this edition no longer decides that if you are X you automatically can do Y. A black pudding might be able to work like this, but it cannot do so in combat because it may not be fast enough or able enough to do so.

When I was originally writing up my example I was going to use Gray Oozes. However, medium-sized creatures can fit into any space the DM thinks they could!

That's the kind of rule that puts the pressure of judgement upon the DM. How does he make that ruling? Can a gray ooze slip under a door? Can a kobold? How does the DM make that decision - what principles should he follow?

Interesting question, I think.

I agree with this, because otherwise it turns dominate into a ridiculous save or die that's terrible for the game.

I think that's a DM judgement call. I would not have a problem having that shot down in a game. As a DM, I don't mind it (disarms) so much; however, I don't have a problem with Intimidate checks vs. Will doing damage. I have a looser view of the currency of the game (how effectiveness - attack modifiers, skill bonuses, powers - translates into XP), I think.

No it can't. For one thing, the forced movement has to be legal (You can't pull enemies through blocking terrain) and you can't pull an enemy unless it could legally occupy a square (so off a tower isn't possible with come and get it). You can only pull via forced movement something vertically if it is flying (special exemption).

I could be off on the rules. I do recall this situation coming up in a game and I waved it off; the players were disappointed but had no problem with the ruling.

I'm failing to see the point here exactly. Some creatures are more threatening than others, just like PCs different creatures can have a range of abilities and power.

The point is that, if monsters don't have "set" levels, as a player you don't know (can't judge by the colour alone) if the ogre lair is full of standard MM monsters or levelled-up ones. That can be a boon for some metagame goals, and a curse for others. It's not good for a sandbox game where players are expected to pick and choose the level of risk and reward, but it can be great for a game that focuses more on the interpersonal and social consequences of the PC's actions.

(That could possibly be mitigated by calling for knowledge checks.)
 

pemerton

Legend
On knowledge checks: these will give the monster's powers, and hence its attacks (including bonus and damage), which is more important than "level" as an abstract measure of power.
 

Aegeri

First Post
When I was originally writing up my example I was going to use Gray Oozes. However, medium-sized creatures can fit into any space the DM thinks they could!

If it doesn't have it on its stat block it does not make it a flaw or an oversight. Perhaps it can flow under things, it just takes a minute. Is it worth while putting a power on a monsters stat block that takes 10 rounds for it to use?

No, it's not.

Outside combat it can do what it wants of course, it has the time to slowly squeeze its way into anything it has to. During combat it may just be far too slow at it to make it a relevant combat maneuver.

I could be off on the rules. I do recall this situation coming up in a game and I waved it off; the players were disappointed but had no problem with the ruling.

It's the actual rules for forced movement, you can't push someone into the air for example. The archers on a battlement can't just be pulled off by come and get it, unless of course there isn't a battlement (say a flat raised area). In which case due to the fact they would be falling off that area they would get a saving throw before falling.

It depends on the situation, but if I'm thinking of archers up on a battlement, the battlement would prevent them from being pulled off IMO. If it was flat they COULD be pulled off, but they would get a saving throw before falling like anything else would.

The point is that, if monsters don't have "set" levels, as a player you don't know (can't judge by the colour alone) if the ogre lair is full of standard MM monsters or levelled-up ones.

That's good IMO as it reduces metagame nonsense and keeps them on their toes more. I absolutely HATE metagaming with a passion and the less PCs assume based on the fact something is an ogre the better. That's one thing I love about monsters, that troll might have a lot of different powers and abilities. You can't tell until you face the enemy and with how easy it is to customise monsters, it means assuming things gets you killed while a bit of caution is more rewarded.

And again, knowledge checks are a free action and can tell you about a creatures resistances, general defenses and the kinds of powers it may have. There isn't any reason not to do this!
 

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