YB3 Rules

[Sollir Furryfoot]

'ello, as 1/2 of the makers of the current rules I'll draft my responses (although Kal's opinion may differ). Just a quick forward, thank you for voicing your opinions as we really need all the ideas we can get to make this a good game and thanks to Phoenix for doing your best to answer all the questions.

1. I think from a flavor standpoint, the Stamina Points should probably be renamed to Ki or Chi.

Noted.

2. Have the advancement either be *slower* such that you get a real chance to understand and work with the powers... or have each tier only grant *one* power for the same reason.

I guess what is fast or slow is really a subjective matter. I am of the opinion that while one may go from Tiers 1 through 3 at a fairly decent pace, the later tiers come pretty slow. Depending on how many flags your match is set at, it would take generally at least 3 days and as much as 3 weeks or so at a leisurely pace to finish, giving one ample time to figure out how their moves work, or so I'd imagine. Plus, if we use the same system as last game for the amount of wins that are needed to go up a tier, 'leveling up' would come more quicker the first few tiers but then slow down to a more respectable pace for people having confusion to catch up. I'm still unsure of this matter however, as it has been brought up before by others.

From a behind-the-thought-processes, rules standpoing: we started with the Clansman/Warrior (Yakuza/Honor paths) which we assumed to have the same amount of equiv styles/locs each tier, plus at least one extra ability (as you don't need to learn anything about styles/loc past Tier 1) to keep them interesting. We then created Mystic/Aristocrat/Acolyte (Light/Sash/Dark paths) afterwards with more abilities and less sigs/styles in mind and (hopefully) balanced them with that in mind, giving them powers one needs to learn than the other two paths. For this reason, I guess I would suggest Warriors/Clansmen for beginners, Mystics/Aristocrats/Acolytes for Intermediate (due to more micro-managing needed for Mystics/Acolytes and more customization needed for Aristocrats).

3. Any uses of Stamina/Ki/Chi should fall outside of victory conditions. In other words, the flag system should remain pure with the other effects (damage, if you want to go that far, etc), being outside of that. The game should always be able to be won with 2 (or 3?) flags on one side of a bout. Granted, you might take a fighter tot he point of 0 Stamina/Ki/Chi and have some effect for having "negative values" here... but voctory should still require the flags and they should be passed backa nd forth without regard for the other effects attacks may have.

Sorry if I'm not reading this statement right, but I think SP as is works a bit differently than what you may think it does. You can't win a battle by reducing your opponent to 0 SP. However, you can't do multiple flag damage with one attack unless your opponent is reduced to 0 SP. It serves more as a buffer against some one stacking powers on one attack to win in 1 or 2 rounds and also gives us a neat mechanic to play with to make each path more individualized. You can still win a match and have your opponent end with maximum SP.

4. I wrote the code that currently drives the move generators. I am more than willing to aid in the construction of YB3 via acting as a code-monkey, if you so desire.

Thank you very much for the offer! We may just take you up on that someday, but before we can adjust the generator any we need to more clearly define the rules a bit.

 

[KDLadage]

I can see your point on the rate of advancement... but for sake of argument, allow me to suggest something that I suggested back in the day (when the YB2 Rules Committee first convened) and was rejected (but which I still feel holds some merit). I am not suggesting you scrap everything and follow this concept, I am giving it out in order to offer a new way of thinking that might aid in revitalizing the way the game is played.

What if there were no set paths?

Imagine it something like this: We have a set of powers and abilities. These powers and abilities are ranked in their overall effect -- most powers and abilities being ranked at the baseline of "1 point" powers. Each time you advance, rather than having a set path defined for you in advance, you (at each tier) select "X points" worth of abilities and powers. The value of "X" in this case, could even be variable, possible going up slightly with each tier -- or even being equal to the value of th tier itself. I.e.:

• Tier 0: 0 points in powers/abilities (for a total of 0 points)
• Tier 1: +1 point in powers/abilities (for a total of 1 point)
• Tier 2: +2 point in powers/abilities (for a total of 3 points)
• Tier 3: +3 point in powers/abilities (for a total of 6 points)
• Tier 4: +4 point in powers/abilities (for a total of 10 points)
• Tier 5: +5 point in powers/abilities (for a total of 15 points)
• Tier 6: +6 point in powers/abilities (for a total of 21 points)
• Tier 7: +7 point in powers/abilities (for a total of 28 points)
• Tier 8: +8 point in powers/abilities (for a total of 36 points)
• Tier 9: +9 point in powers/abilities (for a total of 45 points)

Now... in such a structure, Stamina/Ki/Chi would always cost 1 -- thus, assuming you took nothing but Stamina/Ki/Chi for all 9 tiers, you would have 45 points of the stuff -- not much you could use it for, without other abilities, but it would be there.

So abilities like Rhetoric (which I would allow to be taken multiple times, to generate an additional insult with each level of the ability), Signature Style, and Signature Location might cost 1 point as well. So a fighter that took nothing but these and Stamina/Ki/Chi at all tiers, might be a Tier 9 fighter with Rhetoric (+5), Signature Styles (x15), Signature Locations (x15), Stamina/Ki/Chi (10)...

Now... all of the abilities that you call "active" powers (which I would probably call "activated" powers instead) should cost 1 or more Stamina/Ki/Chi to activate. These abilities, being able to be activated outside of the effects of the generator, shoulc all be 2 or more points to take -- and thus, be restricted to Tier 2 fighters and higher. For example: Crowd Pleaser; this one might be a 2 point power, requiring the use of 1 Stamina/Ki/Chi to activate. Alternatively, you might define this power like this:


Name: Crowd Pleaser
Prerequisites: None
Cost:: 2 pts
Type: Activated (Chi: 1 to 3)
Description: When you generate your move, you may declare it to be executed with extra flair, and then spend from 1 to 3 Chi. This must be declared as you post your move. If the move is successful, you gain +2 Yen per Chi spent on this ability; if the move is unsuccessful, there is no effect.

This is just an example.

But as you can see, by defining powers (and perhaps, having players define powers, that are then approved/disapproved of by the Rules Committee) you can have a game that grows and evolves... without having to define hard paths.

Now... the paths do not have to go away completly. For example, you could have 5 or 6 pre-defined sets of powers, using the system as described, and call those paths. But not lock anyone into them.

(Also... I had a lot of material I wrote on Dojo/Gang rules for how a single high-tier fighter can spend points that would create Dojo Styles/Locations... that have no more effect than a Signature Style/Location, except that once a Dojo Master/Gang Leader accepts a member into his organization, those members automatically gain the Style/Location as a "bonus" style/location that can be taken away, if the master is not pleased...)

So... what do you think?

 

[KDLadage]

One other thing... and a minor one at that...

Once you (and the committee) have hammered out the rules, tested them, and are satisfied with them... I would suggest archiving all of the threads in the messageboards currently, cleaning up the place... then starting fresh.

Trye inviting some of the old gang back in in the early days of the launch... and seeing if you can stir up some interest again. I know that Rich Bowman would like to come back...

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

I really appreciate the feedback, keep it coming!

I can't honestly say I haven't thought about doing it your way, KDLadage, and while I can't speak for Kalanyr, the main problem I see with such an open system like that is that it encourages min/maxing even more than usual. Last YB for instance we had a few stacking problems with Fist of Fury + 2 Poison Blades, +Masteries, etc... I'll toss over the idea to Kal and co. though and we'll definately consider it.

The way things are going now however, you might be pleased to see at least part of your system in operation. The system you speak of is very similar to the one we're using for Artifacts, which, in combination with the path system, would give a player a good option to customize his own character (including unique powers for his character, as long as its approved by the committee) without upsetting the overall balance too much (due to the sacrifice of yen and the risk of losing the artifact). We hope to make it in some ways more limited than last YB (with the sheer amount of powers on an artifact) while making it more open in others (open to more unique powers, artifacts more easily affordable/accessible to all fighters).

And about your last comment, most definately! We're thinking about wrapping up playtesting early (within the next 2 weeks about) in hopes of increasing interest and doing a bit more tweaking during the game, something akin to the good ol' 'Yb original' days. The only thing stopping us from beginning is some last minute fixes on the classes and fine-tuning on the artifact rules themselves.

 

[Kalanyr]

And as an added note, we are thinking about trying to do an 'unofficial' revision of YBA, it would certainly be possible to set up a subgame of competing fighters in such an environment and its pathless and pointbased.

 

[Phoenix8008]

Hello again all.

Thought I'd say a few words and pass on an idea I just had after reading the last couple posts. I have always liked the type of open-ended system KDLadage is describing. That's why I liked YBA so much. I've said this before of course and I understand the reasons given for why it doesn't work well. Heck, in YBA I min-maxed my character all to heck and back to squeeze every last drop of power out of it.

But what if there was a way to prevent that but still allow the open-ended choice? What if the powers that could be abused by putting them together were on a list that you couldn't choose from more than once or maybe twice. Or limit it by the point value of the power if you use KD's earlier example. Maybe you can only have 2 powers of any point value. You get where I'm going here. You have choices and options but there are limits to keep it from being abused.

Or even easier, if there were limits on how many powers you could use in any given round, then you could have all the powers you want but not be able to do the massive 4-5 power combo like Sollir described. How about that solution?

If nothing else, maybe there could be a path that set alongside the current 5 that does get to pick it's powers from a list with some restrictions like discussed above?

Anyway, just thought I'd add to the discussion. Make of it what you will.

 

[KDLadage]

How about this:

IN any given round, no more than 2 passive abilities may be applied to the round (player's choices as to which ones, if more could be used...), and no more than one activated ability can be used (obviously, player chosen on that one). This should apply even if the abilities in question come from character-based powers or from an artifact that is weilded... (I would also limit a player to one artifact weilded at any given time as well).

This should keep min/max abuses to a minimum, I would think.

For example, if the move I generate happens to allow me to use both my Signature Style, plus my Signature Location... then they can both apply, but no other passive ability could be stacked onto this. If I chose to also activate my Crowd Pleaser ability, then I can (up to my available Chi, of course), but that would preclude my also using (for example), Fist of Fury on teh same turn, even if I had the Chi to activate both...

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Will this do?

-You may only use up to 1 Active Power and 1 Swift Power per round, there is no limit to the number of times you may benefit from a Passive Power (although it's effects never stack). Artifacts and activatable items always count as Swift Powers.

Or do you suggest even more limiting? I figured if you were limited to just 1 active power a round, at higher tiers you may never use all of your powers at all, or only your highest ones before a fight would be over. Although I think the system may be overly complex, *shrugs*

Open ended system with limitations could work I suppose, I'll think a bit more on it myself before I come to a decision if I like it or not, but I'm inclined against it, if only because of flavor/tradition.

 

[KDLadage]

WHat I suggest is that all powers be divided into two types:

Passive: these are your "always on" type powers that are activated by various events in the game (ie: when a key-word comes up in your move). These never cost Chi to use; they activate automatically. I suggest above that no more than 2 of these can be applied to any one move. If, for example, 3 passive abilities are triggered in one turn, then the player will need to select which two to apply to that round.

Active: these are you "I can do these if I want to" type powers that are activated at will through the expendature of Chi. They are not dependent upon specific triggers within the game. I suggest that no more than 1 of these can be applied to any one move. If, for example, a fighter has four activated abilities and the Chi to activate one or more of then, they are limited to activating one that round -- even if they had the Chi to activate all of them...

It is true that a fighter may not have the ability to activate all of them in a given fight. But if we design the abilities correctly, then all of them can have a place within the game. In other words, more powerful abilities have a higher cost to obtain, as well as a higher cost in Chi to activate... meaning that if it is used at the wrong time... then it can leave you vulnerable in later rounds... The game should, after all, have some element of skill in knowing when to use the resources you have available to you.

 

[KDLadage]

The more I think about this, the more I am convinced that the "open, build-your-own-path" structure is the way to go. Especially with the "at Tier X, gain X character points" structure so that the initial couple of tiers are only granting you 1 or 2 powers each... with either several powers or one very potent power being gained at the uper levels.

I would say that You have Tiers and Steps.

A Tier is an advancement level.

A Step is progress towards an advancement level.

A Tier requires that you gain a number of steps equal to the tier +1 to advance. When you advance in tiers, you are reset to 0 steps. IE:

• Tier 0, Step 0
• +1 victory = Tier 1, Step +0
• +1 victory = Tier 1, Step +1
• +1 victory = Tier 2, Step +0
• +1 victory = Tier 2, Step +1
• +1 victory = Tier 2, Step +2
• +1 victory = Tier 3, Step +0
• +1 victory = Tier 3, Step +1
• +1 victory = Tier 3, Step +2
• +1 victory = Tier 3, Step +3
• +1 victory = Tier 4, Step +0

...and so on, much as it is now.

However, every single tier has 5 negative Steps that can be delved into. If you ever manage to reach reach Step -6, you drop 1 tier and are reset to Step 0. IE:

• Tier 5, Step +0
• +1 loss = Tier 5, Step -1
• +1 loss = Tier 5, Step -2
• +1 loss = Tier 5, Step -3
• +1 loss = Tier 5, Step -4
• +1 loss = Tier 5, Step -5
• +1 loss = Tier 4, Step +0
• +1 loss = Tier 4, Step -1
• +1 loss = Tier 4, Step -2
• +1 loss = Tier 4, Step -3
• +1 loss = Tier 4, Step -4
• +1 loss = Tier 4, Step -5
• +1 loss = Tier 3, Step +0

...and so on, much as it is now...

except -- when you lose a tier, you lose all of the abilities you granted yourself at that tier -- they remain with your character (unable to be used) and are re-activated if you happen to regain your status once again.

I would add a couple of "passive" abilities that can be taken, however, to make more "stable" characters:



Name: Expert
Prerequisites: Tier 3 or higher
Cost: 2 character points
Type: Passive
Description: You have mastered the basic techniques of your particular style of combat. You cannot be reduced below the level of a Tier 3 fighter. If you are a tier 3 fighter, and accumulate a 6th (or more) negative step, then you simply continue to accumulate negative steps without being reduced in tier.

and


Name: Master
Prerequisites: Tier 5 or higher, Expert
Cost: 2 character points
Type: Passive
Description: You have mastered the basic techniques of your particular style of combat. You cannot be reduced below the level of a Tier 5 fighter. If you are a tier 5 fighter, and accumulate a 6th (or more) negative step, then you simply continue to accumulate negative steps without being reduced in tier.

and


Name: Grand Master
Prerequisites: Tier 7 or higher, Master
Cost: 2 character points
Type: Passive
Description: You are the master of your craft. You cannot be reduced below the level of a Tier 7 fighter. If you are a tier 7 fighter, and accumulate a 6th (or more) negative step, then you simply continue to accumulate negative steps without being reduced in tier.

and finally...



Name: Secret Knowledge
Prerequisites: Tier 3 or higher, Expert
Cost: 1 character point
Type: Passive
Description: You are a quick study and are able to retain knowledge well. If you would accumulate a 6th (or more) negative step and would not be reduced in tier through this aquisition (such as through the effects of the abilties Expert, Master, or Grand Master), then you do not gain that negative step, and instead remain at Step -5.

I am telling you... I really think that this could work and work well... without becoming unballanced in any way.