Grappling For Beginners: How To Strike, Hold & Throw
LordMelquiades
Explorer
Thanks Morrus. These rules are great, and I am definitely going to use them. I think for my application of them though, I am going to absorb your Press Hold feat into the existing Improved Grapple feat (ie, add those benefits to Improved Grapple), and the Great Throw feat benefit into Improved Trip. I have a personal preference against introducing new feats unless they are absolutely necessary. But otherwise, great work, and thanks, and you should get the gig working on 4E!
more feats?
Just purchased this and read through it. Very nice. I had a question. What about a feat to make Throws more effective? I'm thinking specifically of throws in Aikido and Judo where by the thrower directs where the throwee is to land. In game mechanic terms, the thrown opponent lands in a spot other than the square they started in. Hmm... perhaps something similar to the Directed Bull Rush ability of Shock Trooper feat from Complete Warrior.
Bertman
Just purchased this and read through it. Very nice. I had a question. What about a feat to make Throws more effective? I'm thinking specifically of throws in Aikido and Judo where by the thrower directs where the throwee is to land. In game mechanic terms, the thrown opponent lands in a spot other than the square they started in. Hmm... perhaps something similar to the Directed Bull Rush ability of Shock Trooper feat from Complete Warrior.
Bertman
Zoatebix
Working on it
So my friends and I ran some numbers on trying to throw giants and other really big things, and we found that it is much easier to Hold or Throw something using your rules than it is to grapple with or trip something in the core rules. This is because One's Morrus Grapple Bonus includes one's BAB, whereas one's Grapple AC does not, unlike the core opposed grapple check which includes both side's BAB. This discrepancy occurs with throw/ v. trip as well, the attacker now gets his BAB to a roll that used to be an opposed ability check (with special size modifiers).
I'm not sure if this discrepancy is a bug or a feature, but a 10th level character tricked out in tripping knocking over a Titan with a decent chance of success (and I've I lost my note paper on this) seems kind of wonky. Initiative becomes much more important in grappling for beginners because it's so much easier to get a hold or a throw result as you go up in level.
The touch attack before tripping or grappling in the core rules is really just a formality after a certain level, except against wonkily exceptional opponents. Your system makes the "wasted" touch attack matter again, in a way...
Anyways, I think we can keep the one roll simplicity of your system and also have results that mesh with the core rules if BAB gets added to one's Grapple AC.
-George Austin
P.S. A minor tweak that would give gnomes and halflings a better chance and that would also remove a step from calculating Grapple ACs would be to add the better of either one's STR or DEX modifier to Grapple AC, rather than both.
I'm not sure if this discrepancy is a bug or a feature, but a 10th level character tricked out in tripping knocking over a Titan with a decent chance of success (and I've I lost my note paper on this) seems kind of wonky. Initiative becomes much more important in grappling for beginners because it's so much easier to get a hold or a throw result as you go up in level.
The touch attack before tripping or grappling in the core rules is really just a formality after a certain level, except against wonkily exceptional opponents. Your system makes the "wasted" touch attack matter again, in a way...
Anyways, I think we can keep the one roll simplicity of your system and also have results that mesh with the core rules if BAB gets added to one's Grapple AC.
-George Austin
P.S. A minor tweak that would give gnomes and halflings a better chance and that would also remove a step from calculating Grapple ACs would be to add the better of either one's STR or DEX modifier to Grapple AC, rather than both.
bertman4 said:
There are some in the sequel, Grappling for Advanced Students.
Feature - 10th level characters can do a lot of superhuman things. The system allows you to describe it how you want - but there are plenty of ways I can imagine a 10th level character rendering a giant sized opponent prone. Heck, maybe you tied his shoelaces together!
Zoatebix
Working on it
Against the Titan
Here's an illustration of problem:
The relevant stats for a titan: Grapple AC 34, Grapple attack +44, Touch AC 8, STR check to avoid trip +24.
I think we can see from the fact that the Titan's grapple modifier is 10 higher than its grapple AC that Morrus' system skews heavily in favor of the attacker, but let's contiue with this example
Let's suppose a 10th level figher with 22STR. He started with 16 - just a little nudge from the elite array, and has +4 from a belt and +2 for the ability increases at 4th and 8th level. He also has the improved trip feat, for a total modifier to his tripping check of +20.
Under the core rules, his chance to hit the giant is a compound probability problem. I'll keep the math in parentheses.
First, the fighter must hit the Touch AC, which means not rolling a 1.
(.95 times the sum of...)
Next, the opposed roll - the Fighter succeeds if:
The titan rolls 1 and the fighter rolls 16-20 (.05*.25 or .0125 plus)
The titan rolls 2 and the fighter rolls 17-20 (.05*.20 or .01 plus)
The titan rolls 3 and the fighter rolls 18-20 (.05*.15 or .0075 plus)
The titan rolls 4 and the fighter rolls 19-20 (.05*.10 or .005 plus)
The titan rolls 5 and the fighter rolls 20 (.05*.05 or .0025)
... which comes to a little more than a 3 and a half per cent chance of success.
Under the Grappling for Beginners rules, the Fighter succeeds 35% of the time - on a roll of 14 or higher.
However, my proposed revision (adding BAB to the Grapple AC) doesn't preserve the minute chance that the fighter has in the core rules - he can't hope to hit the Titan's grapple AC of 54.
If we go back to an opposed roll system but eliminate the touch attack, the fighter still has no chance against the Titan, but it does increase the range of situations where the underdog has a shot. If we pick an example Giant or another big creature with a CR closer to 10, the GfB rules still give the Fighter a much better chance of knocking things down than they get in the core.
Many thanks to my friend Tom for noticing how the GfB rules favor the attacker significantly.
Here's an illustration of problem:
The relevant stats for a titan: Grapple AC 34, Grapple attack +44, Touch AC 8, STR check to avoid trip +24.
I think we can see from the fact that the Titan's grapple modifier is 10 higher than its grapple AC that Morrus' system skews heavily in favor of the attacker, but let's contiue with this example
Let's suppose a 10th level figher with 22STR. He started with 16 - just a little nudge from the elite array, and has +4 from a belt and +2 for the ability increases at 4th and 8th level. He also has the improved trip feat, for a total modifier to his tripping check of +20.
Under the core rules, his chance to hit the giant is a compound probability problem. I'll keep the math in parentheses.
First, the fighter must hit the Touch AC, which means not rolling a 1.
(.95 times the sum of...)
Next, the opposed roll - the Fighter succeeds if:
The titan rolls 1 and the fighter rolls 16-20 (.05*.25 or .0125 plus)
The titan rolls 2 and the fighter rolls 17-20 (.05*.20 or .01 plus)
The titan rolls 3 and the fighter rolls 18-20 (.05*.15 or .0075 plus)
The titan rolls 4 and the fighter rolls 19-20 (.05*.10 or .005 plus)
The titan rolls 5 and the fighter rolls 20 (.05*.05 or .0025)
... which comes to a little more than a 3 and a half per cent chance of success.
Under the Grappling for Beginners rules, the Fighter succeeds 35% of the time - on a roll of 14 or higher.
However, my proposed revision (adding BAB to the Grapple AC) doesn't preserve the minute chance that the fighter has in the core rules - he can't hope to hit the Titan's grapple AC of 54.
If we go back to an opposed roll system but eliminate the touch attack, the fighter still has no chance against the Titan, but it does increase the range of situations where the underdog has a shot. If we pick an example Giant or another big creature with a CR closer to 10, the GfB rules still give the Fighter a much better chance of knocking things down than they get in the core.
Many thanks to my friend Tom for noticing how the GfB rules favor the attacker significantly.
Zoatebix
Working on it
Morrus said:Feature - 10th level characters can do a lot of superhuman things. The system allows you to describe it how you want - but there are plenty of ways I can imagine a 10th level character rendering a giant sized opponent prone. Heck, maybe you tied his shoelaces together!
Point taken!
The thing that my GM noticed in play when we started using your rules was that my character would have to roll a 1 to fail when tripping some strongish medium creatures, whereas they had a fighting chance (+6 them vs +13 me) under the core rules.
One thing to remember is that, in normal combat, attack bonuses and ACs don't increase at the same rate, either. It's one of the things often noted about the combat system - the two get slowly further apart as you gain levels, AC lagging behind.
Since this system was designed to being grappling "in line" with the regular combat system, that places it firmly in the "feature" department, in my mind. To address that issue, you need to address it as a whole across D&D, not just here.
Since this system was designed to being grappling "in line" with the regular combat system, that places it firmly in the "feature" department, in my mind. To address that issue, you need to address it as a whole across D&D, not just here.
