Grappling For Beginners: How To Strike, Hold & Throw

[Morrus]

Ooops, sorry DrSpunj - didn't notice your post there! I'll answer your questions a little later (I'm just putting together the supplemental monster abillities page).

 

[Morrus]

OK, here goes!

Improved Bullrush talks about moving into the defender's space, however there's no similar section in the Hold attack section. If the attacker's Hold is successful do both combatants remain in their original spaces? I'm getting a picture of Sumo wrestlers here, if so.

They remain in their own squares, just like any melee combatats do. If you think about it, two sword-fighters would be circling each other, etc. - but the rules abstract that out and don't deal with it. In the same way, these rules just "assume" there's all sorts of wriggling about and funky stuff going on.

This pretty much means I don't need to answer half your questions now.

Either way, you list the penalties applied for someone who is held when being attacked by opponents other than the one grappling them, but are not explicit about any possibility of randomly hitting one of the other combatants either in melee or with ranged weapons. The PHB describes the latter while other systems (namely Iron Heroes) describe the former. Just looking for a clarification here, really.

I didn't, no - I've never really liked that because it doesn't mesh with the lack of such a rule for shooting someone in regular melee. While I appreciate a mistake would be more likely when grappling rather than in regular melee, the mechanic simply doesn't exist for regular melee. It's -4 to hit, if you fail, you miss.

In the long run, I don't see that adding that adds to the game particularly; and it adds yet another die roll.

If someone is successfully held, you describe their -4 to AC to other opponents and delineate their options for attacking with a light weapon or natural attack at a -4 penalty, or unarmed strikes without penalty. They also can't use two weapons. However, it's not clear to me whether they can use those options only against the person(s) holding them, or whether they could choose to attack foes outside the grapple but within range. It's very cinematic to have the hero being held in a choke hold by one opponent and being unable to shake him loose before another foe comes up to join the fun; the hero kicks the new guy away before throwing the holder off of him.

You can use attacks against someone outside the grapple, so your cinematic situation is perfectly viable.

Basically, it's all a lot less harsh on the grapplers now - in the interests of smooth play and cool, cinematic combat.

Hope all that helped!

 

[LordMelquiades]

Hi Morrus

Thank you so much for this! No matter how many times I have to adjudicate grappling, I can never remember how the rules work... and now I can!

Some questions:

1. In movies and the like, two dudes are grappling with one another, right? Let's call then The Goon and Steve Austin. Steve grabs The Goon's knife and stabs him. The Goon is not seriously hurt, but shouts in pain and drops the grapple. Maybe dealing any sort of damage when held should cause your opponent to drop his grapple? Or create a chance to cause the grapple to end (eg force the wounded Goon to make another grapple attack, at a penalty based on the damage received)? Maybe this over-complicates things, which I Do Not Want To Happen!

2. Instead of the standard Trip rules, you suggest we use your Throw rules. Cool. Does the standard 'Tipping with a Weapon' rules still apply (no AoO, and you can drop the weapon to avoid the 'reflected trip'; although I guess there is no such thing as the 'reflected trip' anymore)?

3. Overrun has become like a knockdown--choice!

 

[DrSpunj]

They remain in their own squares, just like any melee combatats do. If you think about it, two sword-fighters would be circling each other, etc. - but the rules abstract that out and don't deal with it. In the same way, these rules just "assume" there's all sorts of wriggling about and funky stuff going on.

Fair enough, and I certainly don't mind hand-waving some abstract stuff with these rules. As you say, the Core rules do that all over the place in other ways.

That said, my mind always tries to visualize the action (hence my cinematic concern ) and I can easily see a Strike being no different than any other melee attack while a Throw occurs when someone gets close enough to push the other one off balance. Sticking to your own squares there makes a lot of sense. With one person literally Holding another, though, I can't move past the visual images of the two Sumo wrestlers leaning against each other with their hands locked around each others heads.

But that's my issue, not yours, and I'll get over it (eventually ).
I just wanted to make sure I was understanding your rules correctly as you were seeing them.

This pretty much means I don't need to answer half your questions now.

Ha! Yeah, I figured that might be the case.

Basically, it's all a lot less harsh on the grapplers now - in the interests of smooth play and cool, cinematic combat.

Hope all that helped!

It certainly does, and thanks for taking the time to answer & clarify. It's very much appreciated. And thanks for the coupon for the Advanced Students sequel, which I'm going to go get now!

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

DrSpunj, if you watch Ultimate Fighter Championship, you will see that Sumo wrestlers are not the only style that gets into holds while the fighters legs are quite a distance apart

Maybe that can help you get over the visual.

 

[Morrus]

1. In movies and the like, two dudes are grappling with one another, right? Let's call then The Goon and Steve Austin. Steve grabs The Goon's knife and stabs him. The Goon is not seriously hurt, but shouts in pain and drops the grapple. Maybe dealing any sort of damage when held should cause your opponent to drop his grapple? Or create a chance to cause the grapple to end (eg force the wounded Goon to make another grapple attack, at a penalty based on the damage received)? Maybe this over-complicates things, which I Do Not Want To Happen!

It's an idea, certainly. I also envisage this being useful when a character is held in a giant squid's tentacle or somesuch - they often seem to stab the tentacle to get free. I think I'll write that into the next update. Good thinking!

2. Instead of the standard Trip rules, you suggest we use your Throw rules. Cool. Does the standard 'Tipping with a Weapon' rules still apply (no AoO, and you can drop the weapon to avoid the 'reflected trip'; although I guess there is no such thing as the 'reflected trip' anymore)?

That's right - no reflected trip.

 

[LordMelquiades]

That's right - no reflected trip.

Righty. So, the only benefit now of using a weapon to trip/throw is that you do not provoke an AoO, is that correct? Which, I must say, seems benefit enough to me to still make it worthwhile.

 

[Morrus]

Righty. So, the only benefit now of using a weapon to trip/throw is that you do not provoke an AoO, is that correct? Which, I must say, seems benefit enough to me to still make it worthwhile.

Yep, that's right.

 

[LordMelquiades]

Thanks Morrus--loving it...

 

[LordMelquiades]

Hey Morrus

Two more questions from me, I hope I'm not revealing my stupidity here...

1. You state

While held, you may make attacks with a light weapon or a natural weapon, although you suffer a -4 penalty on such attacks.

Does this apply to the grappler who has applied the hold (as well as the victim of the hold)?

2. In a Bull Rush situation, you say moving into the defender’s space

provokes an attack of opportunity from the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender; note that, as a change from the core rules, this does not provoke an attack of opportunity from anyone other than the defender.)

Do you mean that by having the Improved Bull Rush feat a character does not provoke an attack of opportunity from anyone other than the defender, or that in all cases, attempting a Bull Rush using these rules does not provoke an attack of opportunity from anyone other than the defender?

Thanks!