Grappling For Beginners: How To Strike, Hold & Throw

[Sean the Metamage]

All right, finally downloaded it, read it, and approved!

Some remarks and questions, still.

Remarks first:

Page 3, left column, optional rule: use of 'armour' instead of 'armor', as in the rest of the PDF -> voluntary, to differentiate the armor (worn) from the armor (AC)?

Page 4, left column, "When you are grappling with an opponent., your actions are limited." -> dot after opponent

Page 4, right column, "As per standard the d20 core rules," -> shouldn't it be "As per the standard d20 core rules,"

Page 5, Old feats -> Tumble isn't a feat, so you shouldn't mention it along the feats​

After, some questions:

I have only one attack per round, and I just succeeded on a hold attack. Per the core rules, I would automatically inflict (1d3+Strength bonus) damage to my opponent at this point, and wait for the next round to inflict more damage. Now, per your rules, my fighter can only hold, and appears useless. And if he was a monk, even with flurry of blows, he wouldn't be able to hold then attack, since hold isn't a strike. Does it mean that hold is useless at low levels (until you gain iterative attacks)? Perhaps he could still automatically inflict damage, but in this case nonlethal damage - as opposed to Press Hold.

I have multiple holds (two, to be exact) established on an opponent, and I have the Press Hold feat. Can I simultaneously, in one round, inflict damage and prevent my opponent from establishing a hold on me (both through the Press Hold feat)?

Also, what is your point of view with the use of your rules with the flurry of blows ability?​

And finally, the presentation and layout (to make it even better):

The text in the paragraphs isn't solid, you should justify it (it makes the text seems more 'solid') -> but only for the paragraphs, not any title
Also, the feats appear too much spaced, because of the interval between each title and text in them. You could simple halve these intervals -> but only in feats

I tried printing the pdf, but decided against it because of the layout, since some information was on two pages, and I prefer having all on the same page.

Suggested layout:
page 2: Introdution to Grappling ; Grappling Scores
page 3: Unarmed Attacks ; Strike ; Throw
page 4: Hold
page 5: Hold (continuation) ; Multiple Attacks ; Old Feats
page 6: Old Feats (continuation)
page 7: New Feats​

 

[Zoatebix]

After, some questions:

I have only one attack per round, and I just succeeded on a hold attack. Per the core rules, I would automatically inflict (1d3+Strength bonus) damage to my opponent at this point, and wait for the next round to inflict more damage. Now, per your rules, my fighter can only hold, and appears useless. And if he was a monk, even with flurry of blows, he wouldn't be able to hold then attack, since hold isn't a strike. Does it mean that hold is useless at low levels (until you gain iterative attacks)? Perhaps he could still automatically inflict damage, but in this case nonlethal damage - as opposed to Press Hold.

Umm... under the core grappling rules you cannot both start a grapple and deal damage in one action either. In terms of game effects, we're no better, no worse (In terms of mechanics, we've gone from three die rolls to resolve a single action to one die roll. Wow!)

Since I haven't yet made it clear how cool I think your product is (I didn't have "permission" or somesuch to post a review the other day), let me reiterate: Wow!

 

[Morrus]

All right, finally downloaded it, read it, and approved!

Great!

Page 3, left column, optional rule: use of 'armour' instead of 'armor', as in the rest of the PDF -> voluntary, to differentiate the armor (worn) from the armor (AC)?

I write in my own (British) English, but I can't change defined game terms. So "armour" in a sentence, but "Armor Class" when it's the game mechanic.

Page 4, left column, "When you are grappling with an opponent., your actions are limited." -> dot after opponent

Page 4, right column, "As per standard the d20 core rules," -> shouldn't it be "As per the standard d20 core rules,"

Page 5, Old feats -> Tumble isn't a feat, so you shouldn't mention it along the feats

Thanks - I'll get those in the next update!

I have only one attack per round, and I just succeeded on a hold attack. Per the core rules, I would automatically inflict (1d3+Strength bonus) damage to my opponent at this point, and wait for the next round to inflict more damage. Now, per your rules, my fighter can only hold, and appears useless. And if he was a monk, even with flurry of blows, he wouldn't be able to hold then attack, since hold isn't a strike. Does it mean that hold is useless at low levels (until you gain iterative attacks)?

I don't think so, for the following reasons:

Someone without Press Hold is just clutching at his opponent and trying to hold him still in an untrained way. It's therefore not great for causing damage - but it is still useful.

However, remember the off-hand attack rules. You can hold him, and if you still want to hurt him while you do, you use those rules. It should be a little trickier than when not engaged in a grapple.

As you get better at fighting (by reducing the off-hand penalties or by gaining iterative attacks), you're getting better at hurting someone while grappling. So you can still do it at low level, it just ain't all that easy.

Press Hold, of course, changes that.

I have multiple holds (two, to be exact) established on an opponent, and I have the Press Hold feat. Can I simultaneously, in one round, inflict damage and prevent my opponent from establishing a hold on me (both through the Press Hold feat)?

Yes. Each attack is seperate (although you may choose to narratively describe them as one).

Also, what is your point of view with the use of your rules with the flurry of blows ability?[/INDENT]

I don't see an incompatibility. In fact, I've made it into a General feat in the sequel!

And finally, the presentation and layout (to make it even better):

The text in the paragraphs isn't solid, you should justify it (it makes the text seems more 'solid') -> but only for the paragraphs, not any title
Also, the feats appear too much spaced, because of the interval between each title and text in them. You could simple halve these intervals -> but only in feats

I tried printing the pdf, but decided against it because of the layout, since some information was on two pages, and I prefer having all on the same page.

Suggested layout:
page 2: Introdution to Grappling ; Grappling Scores
page 3: Unarmed Attacks ; Strike ; Throw
page 4: Hold
page 5: Hold (continuation) ; Multiple Attacks ; Old Feats
page 6: Old Feats (continuation)
page 7: New Feats​

I play with the layout a bit more with each update (so keep an eye on your Bookshelf).

 

[Morrus]

Since I haven't yet made it clear how cool I think your product is (I didn't have "permission" or somesuch to post a review the other day), let me reiterate: Wow!

Thank you!

When I was younger I used to spend hours redesigning modular "parts" of AD&D 1E, and later 2E to make them fit my personal concept of rules elegance. Even if these rules aren't perfect (yet), I feel that they're an improvement on the core.

 

[Sean the Metamage]

Hey, Morrus, I'm writing a review for it, and I remarked that the bookmarks are all wrong, as they apply only on the feats, and for each part of them.

It would be better to simply suppress them, or otherwise make real bookmarks.

Waiting for your next update.

 

[Morrus]

Hey, Morrus, I'm writing a review for it, and I remarked that the bookmarks are all wrong, as they apply only on the feats, and for each part of them.

It would be better to simply suppress them, or otherwise make real bookmarks.

Waiting for your next update.

Eh? I didn't make any bookmarks. Is that something Acrobat does by itself?

 

[Morrus]

OK, found it. I've updated the file again with correct bookmarks and fixed the typos Sean spotted.

 

[Bayonet_Chris]

Clarity

Here is something that is a bit unclear from the text - maybe because it's not explicitly stated one way or the other. It says you only need two scores for grappling - your grapple attack bonus and your grapple armor class. So you're attempting to get your grapple touch attack with a normal attack as per the base rules or you're starting off the bat with a grapple check and ignoring the first step?

That was unclear. Let me rephrase.
Option 1: Unarmed melee attack vs. grapple AC, free grapple check vs grapple AC if successful.
Option 2: Grapple check vs. grapple AC is the only roll.

I get the feeling that you mean to just enter with the grapple check against the grapple armor class, but I could be mistaken.

Also, I think it would be helpful to have a sample grappling combat to illustrate the system a bit better.

 

[Morrus]

Option 2 is the correct option. It has been condensed into a single attack roll:

A hold represents an attempt to grab, pin or restrain an opponent. To establish a hold, you need to successfully make an attack roll using your grapple attack bonus and your opponent’s grapple armor class.

If you succeed in your attack, you have established a hold on your opponent. If you fail, your attack is ineffective (you may be hanging uselessly off the ogres’ leg, or the spry elf may have squirmed aside).

Throws and Strikes work the same way.

My next thought is to redress a bunch of those special combat actions in the PHB which don't use a single roll - bullrush, trip (which you'd just replace with a Throw anyway), etc.

 

[Bayonet_Chris]

I see it

OK, I got it now. I thought that was the case. Thanks.
-C