How big is a Thieves' guild?

Vorput · Aug 19, 2008

In a small city of about 10,000 people- how big should the thieves' guild be?

Relevant information- there is only one thieves' guild in town, they've worked pretty hard to run any competition into the ground- and participating in a non-guild job is a very risky. The Thieves' guild is pretty well-integrated into reputable businesses, so the line between cutthroat business tactics and just cutting throats is pretty thin. They also control two seats on the 7-seat town council.

The town isn't lawless by any stretch, it has your typical town guard contingency and maintains its own (albeit small) military force. The Thieves' guild is simply good at bribing, hiding, and extorting.

For those of you who have it, I'm using the Restenford thieves' guild affiliation from PHBII if that matters. It's also a 3.5 campaign.

I want this to be a force to be reckoned with, but I want this to be realistic too. A guild too large (or too small) wouldn't make sense, so I'm searching for that perfect number. if you can give it to me, perhaps you could also help with the distribution of forces? Assuming the leader (and most powerful member) is about CR 12, how does the breakdown happen from there? (i.e. how many first, second, third lvl NPCs, of what general classes, etc.)

Any help is appreciated! Thanks!

Vorput · Aug 19, 2008

Bah, there was a time when setting questions like this were the big post-getters on these boards. Perhaps I should insert some comments on my views of 4th edition!

This is a subtly disguised bump btw...

Kez Darksun · Aug 19, 2008

Well, the only source I have handy is the 2nd edition Den of Thieves supplement in which it give the minimum population for an organized thieves guild to be 15,000 or greater in order to support the 10th level requirement to be a guild leader. On the other hand, the general rule of thumb for the size of a thieves guild that they do give is between 1% and 3% of the population for the total number of thieves, and around half of that as the number of thieves organized in a guild. So, based off of that information, you would be looking at a guild of around 50-150 thieves.

fba827 · Aug 19, 2008

I really have no "formula" for this since it isn't really about population (to me) but about how good they are at doing what they do -- a well organized and highly skilled guild can match / beat a larger guild with few mental/skill resources.

But, for lack of anything else to go on, go for 1% of the entire population, so 100 people. At least half of that should be level 3 or lower. Which leaves the other half to distribute among the other levels 4-11 (leaving level 12 for the guild master).

Is the town easily dividable in to districts or cells? perhaps have one Lt. guild in charge of each district/cell (that will set the number for the leser members beneath him/her).

Family · Aug 19, 2008

It'd be interesting to have a guild of 3-5 members. (about the same number as a real world town would have Starbucks)

Hand of Evil · Aug 20, 2008

Comes down to the type of city, it's nature. If they made their living as wreakers, 80% could be part of the guild. If the town is a trade center, with goods moving in and out, 20% or 2000 people would be connected in some way to the guild. Just a city, I think somewhere between 200 and 500 people.

Just look to the cities nature, that is happening inside its walls.

Imp · Aug 20, 2008

500? 1000? Buh!

The way I usually organize my thieves' guilds is, there's a core of about 30 to 50. These are analogous to made men. Planners, enforcers, skilled burglars. Outside that core, you have about 50 to 100 people "who know people" in the guild, do jobs for them, don't know very much, and while they may get help in the dungeon if they land there, they aren't the ones the guild's gonna bust out of jail or anything. Outside of that you have a hundred or so informants and colluders who take bribes and feed the guild info.

The structure of a typical guild – that doesn't have some mystical/religious component gluing it together – doesn't support much more than that. Now, in large crime-ridden metropolises, what'll happen is the Thieves' Guild (or Assassin's Guild) will sit at the top of a pyramid of less powerful more specialized organizations, gangs, or possibly clans. Then you might get to a thousand or so. But they're not going to be directly reporting to the Guildmaster.

In a town of 10k I'd have about 20 core members, 15 hands-on skilled rogues, 5 older people with connections, all with at least a few levels. The low-level muscle comes from town roughs outside the organization.

Admittedly I have been watching a lot of The Wire lately.

Vorput · Aug 20, 2008

Family said:
It'd be interesting to have a guild of 3-5 members. (about the same number as a real world town would have Starbucks)

I found that funny... which is odd, cause I'm not sure I get it...

fba827 said:
I really have no "formula" for this since it isn't really about population (to me) but about how good they are at doing what they do -- a well organized and highly skilled guild can match / beat a larger guild with few mental/skill resources.

But, for lack of anything else to go on, go for 1% of the entire population, so 100 people. At least half of that should be level 3 or lower. Which leaves the other half to distribute among the other levels 4-11 (leaving level 12 for the guild master).

Is the town easily dividable in to districts or cells? perhaps have one Lt. guild in charge of each district/cell (that will set the number for the leser members beneath him/her).

I like the district/cell idea, thanks! It'll force me to get this town better generated as well

Imp said:
500? 1000? Buh!

The way I usually organize my thieves' guilds is, there's a core of about 30 to 50. These are analogous to made men. Planners, enforcers, skilled burglars. Outside that core, you have about 50 to 100 people "who know people" in the guild, do jobs for them, don't know very much, and while they may get help in the dungeon if they land there, they aren't the ones the guild's gonna bust out of jail or anything. Outside of that you have a hundred or so informants and colluders who take bribes and feed the guild info.

The structure of a typical guild – that doesn't have some mystical/religious component gluing it together – doesn't support much more than that. Now, in large crime-ridden metropolises, what'll happen is the Thieves' Guild (or Assassin's Guild) will sit at the top of a pyramid of less powerful more specialized organizations, gangs, or possibly clans. Then you might get to a thousand or so. But they're not going to be directly reporting to the Guildmaster.

In a town of 10k I'd have about 20 core members, 15 hands-on skilled rogues, 5 older people with connections, all with at least a few levels. The low-level muscle comes from town roughs outside the organization.

Admittedly I have been watching a lot of The Wire lately.

Wonderful response, it helps put this all into perspective. I'm off to create a flow chart of the organization using those numbers. Thank you.

Lord Xtheth · Aug 20, 2008

Hmm... wouldn't it be funny if every person in the small town is part, or at least afiliated with the thieves guild?
Ever watch Hot Fuzz?
Normal(ish) people all seeming to be part of this innosent town.. and viola, its actually the thieves hub of the world!

der_kluge · Aug 20, 2008

In a town of 10,000, there's probably very little a 12th level rogue *couldn't* steal.

15-20 sounds about right to me. Any more than that, and they city would likely crack down on them, as they'd probably be running out of potential targets to steal from. Remember that most people in the town are going to have a very modest means, and thus would be unappealing to a rogue worth his salt, so only 10% of the people in the town would probably be worth stealing from.

Like the earlier post, I'd have a variety of rogues make up the guild. Not all would be "thieves" - you might have some burglars, some pick-pockets, maybe even a few con-men, or street thugs. Some of them would be information brokers, and you'd have at least one or maybe two fences - someone who could move all the stolen goods out of the city. Most of those roles would probably have at least fairly high level guy. The other 12-15 people would probably be fairly low level rogues without a specific focus area.

How big is a Thieves' guild?

Vorput

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Family

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