Pathfinder 1E Advanced Class Guide Playtest Rules

Morrus said:

Cleric-divine, druid-nature, and shaman-spirit are pretty standard power sources for those class types across various editions.

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Oh, I know. It's more the using channeling as a defining characteristic of "priestly" types. And the fact that D&D proper never established "spirit" as an actual power source...Shamans with spirit powers are no big...since that's what shamans do/should be. Its the defining as channeling that bugs me...and the fact its the third or fourth thing I've seen, in the last week or two, that is exactly the kind of thing i've been planning to use/do.

Frustrating.

Alzrius said:

Paizo pretty much said this when they announced the book at Gen Con 2013, but the even if you weren't there, the subtext is clear: this book is their acknowledgment that multiclassing doesn't really work (or at least not at much as they want(ed) it to).

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Part of me wants to call it laziness, but I'll be a little circumspect and note that this book concept does fill a big hole in Pathfinder. So many Pathfinder classes end at 20th level with a huge reward for sticking it out for 20 levels. It makes multiclassing extremely unattractive. Yeah, it punishes dipping into a support class for a level or two, but it also punishes legitimate even-level combinations. This is what Pathfinder needed to replace multiclassing -- a new set of classes that combine attributes and also end with good 20th level rewards.

The rewards at 20th level are good, right? I haven't had a chance to crack the PDF yet.

steeldragons said:

Its the defining as channeling that bugs me...and the fact its the third or fourth thing I've seen, in the last week or two, that is exactly the kind of thing i've been planning to use/do.
Frustrating.

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Everything's been done before. So what? It hasn't been done by you. Take it to heart that other people are pursuing ideas parallel to your own -- it means they're interested.

DMZ2112 said:

The rewards at 20th level are good, right? I haven't had a chance to crack the PDF yet.

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Some are. The shaman has some good ones, that are variable based on their spirit chosen. Some are awful (the Brawler's Awesome Blow, which is a Standard Action combat maneuver to do 1 hit of damage, knock prone, and move 10 feet).

TwoSix said:

Investigator is great flavor. A rogue with alchemy, with a ton of use for Intelligence. I was hoping that the Inspiration would be per encounter like the Factotum, but it's another per day resource. Definitely has the Sherlock Holmes feel I think they were going for.

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I hadn't thought of the Sherlock Holmes feel, which I really like... my dislike for the alchemist is still getting in the way of my enjoying the class though.

TwoSix said:

Shaman is pretty cool, although the fact that is casts just like a cleric (cleric spell list, preparation, Wis based) doesn't make it feel very much like either the oracle OR witch.

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I kind of like that it feels more like a Cleric or Druid... the Oracle and Witch always felt a bit too small-niche to me to bother with. It does feel the least like the hybrid it is supposed to be of any of the other classes... why is it closer to Oracle and Witch than Cleric (or even Druid)?

TwoSix said:

Warpriest is just the divine magus,

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Except that the Magus filled the d8 space between the d4 Wizard and the d10 Fighter. The Cleric is already the d8 occupant of the space between a (good version of the) Cloistered Cleric and the Paladin. Either a decent d6 Divine Caster or a more general d10 divine fighter seems like it would have been much more worthwhile.

Cadence said:

I hadn't thought of the Sherlock Holmes feel, which I really like... my dislike for the alchemist is still getting in the way of my enjoying the class though.

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Out of curiosity, what do you dislike about the alchemist? I agree that the HULK-smash builds can be a little abusive. I personally like the techno-vibe, and for some reason the investigator seems to drift that into a steampunk feel, which I appreciate. It feels like the first class I would see in Victorian England.

Cadence said:

I kind of like that it feels more like a Cleric or Druid... the Oracle and Witch always felt a bit too small-niche to me to bother with. It does feel the least like a hybrid of any of the other classes... why is it closer to Oracle and Witch than Cleric (or even Druid)?

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I don't actually mind adding a second cleric list prepared caster, but it's just not an oracle or a witch. It feels to me like they used oracle only because clerics in Pathfinder are so specifically deity-focused, which is something I always houserule or reskin away anyway. And I really don't get how an Int-based arcane caster and a Cha-based divine caster became Wisdom focused when they hybrid.

Cadence said:

Except that the Magus filled the d8 space between the d4 Wizard and the d10 Fighter. The Cleric is already the d8 occupant of the space between a (good version of the) Cloistered Cleric and the Paladin. Either a decent d6 Divine Caster or a more general d10 divine fighter seems like it would have been much more worthwhile.

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Yea, that d8 3/4BAB divine caster slot is pretty darn filled already, between the Cleric, Druid, Inquisitor, and now Hunter. Cleric/fighter just seems like a horrible mashup to me, since the cleric is already so close to a fighter (and let's be honest, pretty easily overshadows him). Now, cleric/summoner....that would have been fun! Shame Paizo hates summoners.

steeldragons said:

Oh, I know. It's more the using channeling as a defining characteristic of "priestly" types. And the fact that D&D proper never established "spirit" as an actual power source...Shamans with spirit powers are no big...since that's what shamans do/should be. Its the defining as channeling that bugs me...and the fact its the third or fourth thing I've seen, in the last week or two, that is exactly the kind of thing i've been planning to use/do.

Frustrating.

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I know exactly how you feel. I'm also designing an RPG and I also have Shamans. And while I felt similar to you when I read this (and when I saw your own thread) and others about how these things just keep popping up when I thought I had a pretty unique idea. But I don't think that either of us should take it personally, it is unlikely bordering on impossible that we are being stolen from and beat to presses. These things just seem to come in trends; a good idea is imagined in parallel and then evolves in different ways. I would only worry about shamans and spirits for your system if they are too close to what PF does - which I don't know maybe a real concern for you or not. It won't be too similar to mine - from what I have seen my system is unique enough in that regard. But you are right, these kinds of things are appearing everywhere.

Before I talk about the advanced classes, here is some background: I am coming from this as someone that does not play Pathfinder, but looks to it for things to steal. My biggest gripe with Pathfinder has been the classes themselves. With the exception of the Wizards bonded item and Rogue Talents, the changes/additions to other core classes in the core book did nothing for me while others turned me off to the classes themselves- most notably the Barbarian, Cleric, and Sorcerer.
Since then, there have been some things in various book that have greatly improved a few of the core classes for my tastes:
- Advanced Player Guide: Bard Archetypes, Druid Terrain variants, Fighter Variants, Monk Variants, Ranger Variants, Rogue Variants and new Rogue Talents
- Ultimate Combat: Bard Archetypes, Fighter Archetypes, Ranger Archetypes, Rogue Archetypes and new Rogue Talents
- Ultimate Magic: Bard Archetypes, Cleric cloistered cleric archetype and new channeling options

As for new Base classes,
Oracle: I want to like it, but something doesn't sit right
Witch: For my tastes, tt pales in comparison to Steve Kenson's Witch from Green Ronin's Witch's Handbook
(End Background)

So, as I approach the Advanced Class Guide classes. I already have a strong dislike for the default Pathfinder classes. However, I find some are improved greatly with supplements and a few are either sitting on the edge of like and dislike or fall short in comparison to specific 3e versions.

As for the playtest classes, at first glance, the only two that I like are the Slayer and the Swashbuckler.

The Shaman is the one that I was most interested in going into the playtest. I dislike the Druid Totem variant archetypes so I was hoping for something here that I would like. I found it lackluster- even more so, if I compare it to Steve Kenson's Shaman class from Green Ronin's Shaman's Handbook. To date for 3e, Steve's Shaman has been the only Shaman for 3e or Pathfinder that I have liked.

The Archivist I need to take a closer look. Right now, I don't see the point of the class.

The Bloodrager: I don't see the point of the class. It is also not appropriate for any campaign that I would run.

The Brawler, conceptually, this is something that I think has been needed for some time. The name of the class and the mechanics do nothing for me. Not a class, I would make room for in a game and I would look elsewhere for something else

The Investigator: Conceptually, this does not fit my campaigns. I'll stick with the Rogue Archetype.

The Skald: The class abilities fall short for me. Granting rage is cool, but spell kenning and dirge of doom do nothing for me and granting rage and lessening the penalties with exprerience is not enough for me.

Warpriest. I don't see the point of the class. The cleric with 3/4 BAB and Medium armor is already pretty much a warrior priest. A Holy Warrior class along the lines of Green Ronin's Holy Warrrior or a Priest (non armored and 1/2 BAB divine class (maybe a sorcerer/cleric hybrid) would have been more interesting to me and filled necessary design .

I'm pretty underwhelmed by this. Most of these seem like expanded archetypes. Warpriest is like the Crusader (Cleric) with some expanded domain powers. Slayer is like the Skirmisher (Ranger), Brawler is like the, well, Brawler (Fighter). Hunter and Shaman could be covered by several different Ranger and/or Druid archetypes. I like that they get some unique powers of their own here and there, and I'm especially fond of the Warpriest as I've always hated the LG restriction on Paladins. In a future campaign I might even consider disallowing Paladins in favor of the Warpriest. We'll see how the playtest finishes up before I commit to that, though.

Edit: And it is still lacking the character concept that I want to see: something that combines a melee combatant with bardic inspiration. I've always thought that the Cavalier should have been that. Sort of a folk hero-type. There is the Chevalier prestige class from one of the old Adventure Path that comes close to it, but it's only 3 levels. It'd be similar to a Paladin or even Warpriest but not necessarily magical in nature. It could fill the role similar to the Warlord in 4e, providing a buffer/support role in low or no-magic campaigns.

I kinda like the investigator despite the class.

Really, all of the classes aren't blowing me away. A couple seem like archetypes or something that might work just as well as an actual multiclassed class. A few might work better as alternate classes instead of being forced into the "hybrid" box. And the shaman is really a hodgepodge of mechanic that only loosely fit the flavour and might work better as its own class without the oracle and witch baggage.

I see the need for the brawler and swashbuckler, due to the difficulty making those characters in the existing game. And the warpriest kinda has a place as the non-LG paladin. The rest? Meh.

Mechanically, I find the Bloodrager fascinating! I'm not sure how well it'll play, it looks a bit high on the power side- but the fact that it can only cast spells while raging may temper that.

Bloodrager is simultaneously the first Arcane 4-spell-level-full-BAB caster, and the first spontaneous 4-spell-level-full-BAB caster. Also the first way to get spells during a rage, outside of a prestige class. It's Magus Minus, with Barbarian added on for better BAB and special powers that make it better in combat without being spells (i.e. rage, the various bloodline powers, etc.).

I think one can get some very interesting stories out of a character who can do things like that.

Arcanist is a bit strange, but looks to me very much like the Erudite did for psionics.

I haven't yet been able to analyze the others in any detail.