5E Deconstructing 5e: Typical Wealth by Level - Page 10
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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnZapp View Post
    Please don't perpetuate the lie that Xanathar supports real magic item pricing or suggest I can use it. It's still all rarity based, which is no substitute for utility.
    So it's not a lie. It does in fact have real magic item pricing that you CAN use. You just don't WANT to use it, because for some reason you want to ignore rarity which is a proper metric for the sale of items of any sort, including magical. That's not the same is it not being usable. Your preference does not make my statement a lie, so stop calling me a liar.

    A more accurate picture, however, would be that they used to produce handcrafted quality icecream (in d20). Maybe not perfect but at least they had ambition and poured a lot of manhours into perfecting that vision (the late-edition Magic Item Compendium).
    The Magic Item Compendium was amazing in what items it had, and absolutely crappy in its pricing. The pricing was unusable by me.

    Now all they're offering you is some over-the-counter shoddily made replica. Like "vegan beef" that really isn't beef at all.
    Pricing has been shoddy since 3e. 5e is not a change with that. And I don't use 5e pricing, because it's shoddy pricing. WotC seems incapable it of making a good magic item price system.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnZapp View Post
    YES rarity is a function of price, which should be a function of utility.

    +3 swords being more expensive than +1 swords might be because fewer artificers can make them. You can even make up stories that explain how the art of +3 weapons being lost to time, so each such weapon you find is a relic of the past.

    But D&D is a game and the gameplay reason is and should be +3 swords being more expensive than +1 swords is because they grant more power, have more utility.
    You are aware that in 5e this is how it works, right? The higher the level of item(more power), the rarer it is. +1 is uncommon. +2 is rare. +3 is very rare. How is that not rarity being a function of utility?
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by S'mon View Post
    3e item pricing is so appallingly bad I don't see how 5e is any worse. 4e is the only system with a functional gear buying/crafting build-a-bear minigame.
    4E sucked as well, the items were boring and there was big discrepancies in the items power. They all suck, because there to many variables in the game (decanter of endless water in the desert, a flying carpet in a gritty game etc).

    AD&D did it best- you can't buy magic items, solves a lot of problems. You could sell at least in 1E, 2E not so much IIRC.

    Letting players buy magic items is the root cause of a lot of problems in 3E, 4E and Pathfinder. The more agency players have the more things go wrong. The more things go wrong it makes the DMs life harder. The harder it is for the DM the less DMs you have. Less DMs = less players. There is a reason they kind of went back to OSR D&D, 3E and 4E took some wrong steps along the way and look everyone's playing D&D again a'la 1983. There a reason for that. Not being able to buy indirectly supports the exploration pillar, and happy DMs.

    The cure for cancer is to kill it. Magic items for sale are cancer, the same treatment works.
    Last edited by Zardnaar; Tuesday, 16th April, 2019 at 01:34 PM.
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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hussar View Post
    3e and 4e both took their mechanics from how earlier editions of the game were being played. If you played AD&D, you were absolutely dripping in magic items. Either from playing AD&D modules, or using the random treasure charts, AD&D presumed a huge number of magic items in the group. They might not have been powerful items, but, you did have a bunch of them. I mean, all you have to do is look at the 1e paladin who was limited to only ten magic items. 4 weapons, a suit of armor, a shield and 4 more magic items. That was the hard limit for paladins. Yikes! That's about what you'd expect on a 10th or 12th level 3e character in a very high magic campaign.
    I don't know what AD&D you played, but the AD&D I played had the most powerful magic items of any edition. They took a step down in power with 3e and 5e, and I presume 4e.

    So, 3e and 4e welded the magic items into the character building rules. You were presumed to use magic items to build your character. The problem is, players being the pragmatists that they were, spent their cash on the Big 6 items and 99.9% of the rest of the magic items in the DMG and other books may well have not existed. It led to cookie cutter characters where, if you listed a character's class and level, you could guess, with a pretty decent degree of accuracy, exactly what items that character had.
    Yep, which is why I got rid of magic mart in my 3e games.

    5e doesn't do that though. There is zero presumption that your characters will get any magic items. Magic items, like they were in 1e, are a bonus, not simply part of the math. Because they aren't part of the math, you can't then bolt a mathematical system of magic items onto the base system and expect it to work. It won't. It can't.

    So, yeah, I know what you want. What you really, really want. But, it's just not feasible under this ruleset. It won't work.
    He already has it. He just doesn't like what they provided and wants a different version. Personally, I don't like what they provided either. It suffers from the same problem that 3e did. It generalizes prices and items that the game lists in the same power level, just aren't the same power level. Pricing has to be individual to the item or it's a shoddy system that doesn't work.

  5. #95
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    I highly recommend this fan made magic item pricing supplement. It's a very qualified attempt at pricing items based on utility, basing the assumptions on spells the item replicates. Check it out.

    I know the old CapnZ doesn't agree with the basic assumptions of the system, but it's far better than anyway WotC has half-assed.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnZapp View Post
    Yeah, no. If you have ever played an official module you realize gold and magic items are a part of the game now as well.
    An optional part, yes. The DM is not required to hand out the items from any official module, as magic items are entirely optional. The game does not assume them. I have yet to meet someone who does not hand out any magic items, but I have encountered DMs who make them very rare.

    If you've seen my threads you know I have successfully offered shopping lists to my players.
    It's fairly hard not to be successful at handing a list to someone.

    Seriously, though, nobody is saying that magic mart doesn't work and isn't fun for people who enjoy it. We are saying that since 5e doesn't include a single magic item in the math and hands out tons of gold, magic mart breaks the game. Now, broken games can be very enjoyable to the right sort of person. It's just counter to WotC's game design to put out a product that is designed to break the game it created. Especially when it's very, very easy to just make the price yourself.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hussar View Post
    Look, @CapnZapp, I get what you are looking for, but, frankly, it's just not feasible in the 5e ruleset. It really isn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zardnaar View Post
    The fact that no game system or designer has pulled it off or done any better than Gygax kind of indicates it can't be done. How good any magic item is depends on to many intangibles.
    Despite me not 100% agreeing with @CapnZapp regarding rarity, I don't believe the above statements are quite true.

    I mean what you need is a base for the cost of magic, it should not be so difficult to tabulate.
    Then what you need are (1) multipliers for high and low magic campaigns, (2) Consumable or Permanent enchantments, (3) Utility and (4) Rarity (Tiered - perhaps as per @S'mon's post).

    It just requires some work which I think WotC would rather not invest but I think it would be worthwhile in the long run, but that is just me.

    @CapnZapp, funny enough despite all the negative feedback you endure on this board for the issues regarding Rests, Feats and Magical Items I certainly appreciate the conversations and sometimes solutions that arise from the community. I'm satisfied with the Rest variant that arose from that mammoth thread and I'm using the amendments to some of the Feats I felt needed sprucing up.

    The Magical Item creation/cost has always, ALWAYS, been a thorn in my side. I just need to hunker down one full week and fix it into something I'm comfortable with for myself and my table. All this time, I have been evaluating cost of items on what feels good with guidance from the book. Slowly building a list that way. It has worked, but every time I dread the question as to what is available...
    especially as the PCs reach higher levels and travel to more exotic places.
    Last edited by Sadras; Tuesday, 16th April, 2019 at 02:02 PM.
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnZapp View Post
    utility
    THIS is what we really need: A better way to judge relative item utility. Once we have that, we can use it for a number of purposes, of which pricing is only one.

    For example, it's easier to balance things between party members when using numbers. When I (the DM) place a magic treasure, who should it be best suited for? Well let's see, CapnZapp's total item utility of 18, but Zardnaar's only 10, so the next item should probably be something Zardnaar needs more than CapnZapp.

    Or, a utility number could indicate balance versus monsters. Say you've got a level 4 party, but their total item utility is 22, and the guideline says the total item utility at Tier 1 should be 0-8... that may be a clue that this party is going to run roughshod over a typical level-4 adventure.

    It baffles me that spells have spell levels that people consider sacrosanct, but the idea of rating items in a similar fashion is somehow seen as impossible. On these forums, you can find plenty of examples of people debating what level a new spell should be, or whether a new subclass ability should be higher or lower level by comparing it to spells. And item rarity really does not correspond well to utility; see the discussion of "Major vs. Minor" items in Xanathar's for a good illustration of how rarity really falls down on the job. I do think rarity is useful in indicating how rare an item is, but not its overall utility or market value; for example, universal solvent is Legendary, but pretty useless most of the time.
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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77IM View Post
    THIS is what we really need: A better way to judge relative item utility. Once we have that, we can use it for a number of purposes, of which pricing is only one.

    For example, it's easier to balance things between party members when using numbers. When I (the DM) place a magic treasure, who should it be best suited for? Well let's see, CapnZapp's total item utility of 18, but Zardnaar's only 10, so the next item should probably be something Zardnaar needs more than CapnZapp.

    Or, a utility number could indicate balance versus monsters. Say you've got a level 4 party, but their total item utility is 22, and the guideline says the total item utility at Tier 1 should be 0-8... that may be a clue that this party is going to run roughshod over a typical level-4 adventure.

    It baffles me that spells have spell levels that people consider sacrosanct, but the idea of rating items in a similar fashion is somehow seen as impossible. On these forums, you can find plenty of examples of people debating what level a new spell should be, or whether a new subclass ability should be higher or lower level by comparing it to spells. And item rarity really does not correspond well to utility; see the discussion of "Major vs. Minor" items in Xanathar's for a good illustration of how rarity really falls down on the job. I do think rarity is useful in indicating how rare an item is, but not its overall utility or market value; for example, universal solvent is Legendary, but pretty useless most of the time.
    DM adjudication is required you can't really do otherwise. I have seen players with a lot of magic items while others get budkiss that's more of the DMs job, even then if someone is using an obscure weapon that's fine as well. Two magic longswords 0 hand crossbows is logical.

  10. #100
    Just a few thoughts.

    ... Despite being a long term Pathfinder player (until the last few years) I found magic mart a real turn off. I dont like what it does for cookie cutter PC design and builds.

    ... Smaller Baldurs Gate style shopping lists seem fair enough, but for me shops with 100,000 go stock items break verisimilitude.

    ...If I want to see where PCs can spend their winnings I look to other games for inspiration. Skyrim in particular.

    1. Commissioning or crafting items

    2. Good causes, e.g local orphanage

    3. Spell casting services

    4. Property (might be a home in a city or a business)

    5. Art objects - statuettes, paintings, luxury goods etc

    6. Ive adapted masterwork item rules for amazing quality weapons and armour - a masterwork item add either + 1 to hit (finely balanced) or +1 damage (exceedingly sharp) at 500 go each ontop of the cost of the weapon and doesnt hurt creatures affected by magic weapons.

    7. I took the rare materials from Magic of Faerun and converted them to 5e. They are available for purchase at a cost.

    8. Learning new skill/Took proficiencies.

    9. Rare components

    10. Discovering new spells.

    11. Living a noble lifestyle - hosting balls, gambling, boxes at events etc, sponsorship of competitions.

    12. Sponsoring junior adventuring parties and rewarding them with gold / treasure.

    13. Ploughing into an organization (their temple, fortress, or guild etc)

    14. Performance enhancing drugs (Lords of Darkness)

    15. Poisons

    16. Alchemical research.

    17. Patron of the arts

    18. Political aspirations (or support someone elses)

    A lot of these are things that rich people do these days or have always done throughout history. Of course a lot require a bit more work as the DM or Player but to my mind are extremely rewarding. I think Skyrim does it better than any other game Ive played and I well worth a second reminder of how they progress these things.

    [Edit]

    19. Bribes for criminal activity

    20. Paying for housing and feeding of followers

    21. Researching a particular problem/place/people/monster/legend

    22. Travelling the world... the grand tour

    23. A collection of a particular type of item (elven glasswear, dwarves warhorns) or of more practical items - weapons of all different cultures (think Yu Shu Liens dojo in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon)

    24. Amassing a library or alchemical laboratory.

    25. Outfitting a ship

    So many more things people could spend money on. These seem infinitely more fun than a DM deciding ways to take money away from a PC through theft, treachery etc.
    Last edited by TheSword; Tuesday, 16th April, 2019 at 11:11 PM.
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