D&D 5E Deconstructing 5e: Typical Wealth by Level

[Maxperson]

It baffles me that spells have spell levels that people consider sacrosanct, but the idea of rating items in a similar fashion is somehow seen as impossible. On these forums, you can find plenty of examples of people debating what level a new spell should be, or whether a new subclass ability should be higher or lower level by comparing it to spells. And item rarity really does not correspond well to utility; see the discussion of "Major vs. Minor" items in Xanathar's for a good illustration of how rarity really falls down on the job. I do think rarity is useful in indicating how rare an item is, but not its overall utility or market value; for example, universal solvent is Legendary, but pretty useless most of the time.

Spells may have levels that people consider sacrosanct, but the utility of any given spell is subject to great debate. A single spell can range from mediocre to broken beyond belief.

Utility is one of those things that is completely subjective. We can probably reach a consensus about which items are utility, but not how good the utility of any given item is.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah I have to agree with [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] here. Utility is extremely campaign dependent.

I mean I just played the Storm Kings Thunder modules. At the tail end, my cleric got a mace of disruption.

Frankly I didn’t care. We had met zero undead in 11 levels. Why would I attune to this?

OTOH, in our Ravenloft campaign, I would have given rather a lot for that item.

Now, what is the “utility” value of a mace of disruption?

 

[MichaelSomething]

Now, what is the “utility” value of a mace of disruption?

Personally I would describe a mace of disruption's utility as, "low(specialized)"

The "low" meaning not too useful in most cases. In many different situations, that mace won't be too helpful. Specialized (or maybe niche would be a better term) would refer to how it's only good in solving one particular thing (defeating undead) but that can be really helpful when that particular thing comes up.

Another example of a low(specialized) item would be Batman's shark repellent spray. While popular culture treats it like a joke item, it will save you when that shark attack happens.

 

[CapnZapp]

Just a few thoughts.

... Despite being a long term Pathfinder player (until the last few years) I found magic mart a real turn off. I don’t like what it does for cookie cutter PC design and builds.

... Smaller Baldurs Gate style shopping lists seem fair enough, but for me shops with 100,000 go stock items break verisimilitude.

...If I want to see where PCs can spend their ‘winnings’ I look to other games for inspiration. Skyrim in particular.

1. Commissioning or crafting items

2. Good causes, e.g local orphanage

3. Spell casting services

4. Property (might be a home in a city or a business)

5. Art objects - statuettes, paintings, luxury goods etc

6. I’ve adapted masterwork item rules for amazing quality weapons and armour - a masterwork item add either + 1 to hit (finely balanced) or +1 damage (exceedingly sharp) at 500 go each ontop of the cost of the weapon and doesn’t hurt creatures affected by magic weapons.

7. I took the rare materials from Magic of Faerun and converted them to 5e. They are available for purchase at a cost.

8. Learning new skill/Took proficiencies.

9. Rare components

10. Discovering new spells.

11. Living a noble lifestyle - hosting balls, gambling, boxes at events etc, sponsorship of competitions.

12. Sponsoring junior adventuring parties and rewarding them with gold / treasure.

13. Ploughing into an organization (their temple, fortress, or guild etc)

14. Performance enhancing drugs (Lords of Darkness)

15. Poisons

16. Alchemical research.

17. Patron of the arts

18. Political aspirations (or support someone else’s)

A lot of these are things that rich people do these days or have always done throughout history. Of course a lot require a bit more work as the DM or Player but to my mind are extremely rewarding. I think Skyrim does it better than any other game I’ve played and I well worth a second reminder of how they progress these things.

[Edit]

19. Bribes for criminal activity

20. Paying for housing and feeding of followers

21. Researching a particular problem/place/people/monster/legend

22. Travelling the world... the grand tour

23. A collection of a particular type of item (elven glasswear, dwarves warhorns) or of more practical items - weapons of all different cultures (think Yu Shu Lien’s dojo in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon)

24. Amassing a library or alchemical laboratory.

25. Outfitting a ship

So many more things people could spend money on. These seem infinitely more fun than a DM deciding ways to take money away from a PC through theft, treachery etc.

Yes, but if you're playing a campaign... you're playing that campaign, and there's no time or interest or relevance for focusing on ships or laboratories. All the story wants you to, all the players want to - is to get to the next dungeon and keep experiencing the written story and maybe stop the big bad evil guy from wrecking the world in time.

In other words, offering eighteen or twentyfive alternatives to magic shoppes is fine. For campaigns with downtime. Sandboxes and such.

Insisting these eighteen options can replace the magic shoppe alternative, on the other hand, makes no sense. Official campaigns are for the most part focused affairs with a vague but definite clock ticking.

Supporting a means to translate gold into magic item power-ups is extremely essential and absolutely core to the D&D experience. It was one of the best things that d20 offered, and it is a shame WotC has decided to scrimp on the dev resources that is needed to expand and improve upon that work.

 

[CapnZapp]

So it's not a lie. It does in fact have real magic item pricing that you CAN use. You just don't WANT to use it, because for some reason you want to ignore rarity which is a proper metric for the sale of items of any sort, including magical. That's not the same is it not being usable. Your preference does not make my statement a lie, so stop calling me a liar.

As I see it, about the only value of the rarity-based system is for WotC to be able to claim they do offer a system without actually having to put in any real work.

It is obvious to everyone that it is useless for the purpose of character game balance: "here's 10000 gp, equip your character in a balanced way". Rarity is relevant for collecting Mona Lisas. It is utterly irrelevant for adventurers.

Just because words are printed on a page saying "magic item pricing" does not make it so.

The fact that you choose to sidestep and ignore all the issues makes this discussion between us over. If all you're concerned with is making this personal and acting butthurt we have nothing more to discuss.

 

[CapnZapp]

You are aware that in 5e this is how it works, right? The higher the level of item(more power), the rarer it is. +1 is uncommon. +2 is rare. +3 is very rare. How is that not rarity being a function of utility?

Just stop playing dumb, Maxperson.

I know you're perfectly capable of answering your own question. I know you know perfectly well the clear and obvious difference between rarity and utility.

Yes, in some cases they correspond rather well. In other cases, they don't. (Not going to repeat examples here)

But it's all missing the point: which is, that rarity has no business being mixed into the base price of a magic item to begin with.

Once you have established the base price, then (if you absolutely have to) you can apply rarity as a multiplier to that price.

But is clear as day that rarity is just obfuscating the issue, which is that the base price before modifiers needs to reflect the item's power and usefulness, aka utility.

A healing potion or a +2 sword has the same utility no matter how rare it is in a particular market, so its base price is (should be) fixed, and dependent on how much hit points it heals, or its plus bonus (and other abilities) in the case of the sword.

Then the GM is free to halve or triple that price. Maybe there's a temporary scarcity. Maybe the GM has decided healing potions are always rare in her campaign? I don't know and I don't care.

But if the DMG's price lists reflects utility, it remains useful to all campaigns since it represents the objective worth of the item.

 

[CapnZapp]

He already has it. He just doesn't like what they provided and wants a different version.

Please stop. I have repeatedly explained to you that utility works while rarity is worthless.

Characterizing them as "different versions" is grossly misrepresenting my position. Maybe stop speaking on my behalf, eh?

 

[CapnZapp]

I highly recommend this fan made magic item pricing supplement. It's a very qualified attempt at pricing items based on utility, basing the assumptions on spells the item replicates. Check it out.

I know the old CapnZ doesn't agree with the basic assumptions of the system, but it's far better than anyway WotC has half-assed.

Absolutely. The WotC system isn't just half-assed, it's full on all ass.

(I clashed with Blacky but that was - to the best of my memory - over details. We both agree with the basic premise, to establish how much wealth a character of a given level have, and then present prices as a fraction of that wealth. This is because even the "this weapon is 1000 gp" has its limitations in a game with exponential wealth like D&D and because of this: if an item is equally valuable to a level 1 character and a level 20 character, say a magic ring that grants you a fourth attunement slot, the price needs to be maybe "half of your expected wealth" regardless of how much that wealth actually is)

 

[Sadras]

(I clashed with Blacky but that was - to the best of my memory - over details. We both agree with the basic premise, to establish how much wealth a character of a given level have, and then present prices as a fraction of that wealth.

That feels very 4e, in the sense that you evaluate the cost of an item based on wealth similar to how 4e's ability scores meant nothing and were only really comparative to monsters of that tier because of the 1/2 level increment.

I suppose that is one way of doing it, but I don't think you'll find much traction with the community at large. Unless I'm misunderstanding the basic premise.

I mean a riding horse doesn't suddenly become cheaper for a character because they have access to the fly or teleport spell.

 

[S'mon]

Most published campaigns leave plenty of scope for downtime, a good thing imo. Currently running Princes of the Apocalypse and Rise of the Runelords. The former is very sandboxy by design. The latter can use downtime or not depending on how GM spaces the adventures. It is possible to run Runelords with no downtime and magimart or with plenty of downtime - personally in my 5e version it is a political military sandbox with a limited magic item buy.