D&D 5E Mearls on other settings

I like D&D. I like D&D doing those subgenres. I don't care if other settings do those subgenres better, I want to play them in D&D and/or play the D&D version of them. Dark Sun isn't generic sword-and-sorcery or sword-and-planet, it's specifically a D&D version thereof, and that's part of what I really enjoy about it. I enjoy Eberron because it brings pulp and noir to D&D, not for the pulp and noir in a vacuum.

To me, these settings aren't D&D trying to emulate a genre, they are genre-flavored D&D. That still includes changing core assumptions. D&D without changes to the core assumptions isn't genre-flavored D&D, it's D&D with delusions of genre flavor.

Charles Rampant said:

Count me as a vote for light-touch settings, mechanically. The game's classes and races are meant to be generic at their core; having slabs of rules for each setting just to look different (or to practice pointless book keeping, ala Planescape Magic Item rules) simply creates work for no good reason.

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My point exactly.

To me, D&D isn't good for generic genre emulation. Its best when its trying to be D&D. Now, that doesn't mean it can't handle gothic horror, pulp, sword-n-sorcery, etc. It just sucks when it bends and contorts D&D's assumptions so radically that it stops looking like D&D.

To whit: I hated 2e Dark Sun with the fire of a 1,000 burning suns. To me, it was trying so hard to NOT be D&D that TSR should have bit-the-bullet and made it its own system. It changed ability scores, magic, eliminated most of the PHB classes and changed the few that were left before adding a half-dozen new ones. 90% of the Monster Manual was useless. It changed every single race mechanically as well as flavored, and by-and-large was incompatible power-wise with the rest of the game (I once ran a Planescape game where I had foolishly declared characters from any Prime world was kosher; one look at the half-giant gladiator one player wanted to play changed that to "all prime PCs are from Oerth").

I understand 4e Dark Sun did a much better job of making DS fit the D&D rules (rather than flagrantly break them at every opportunity), which is a far-better example of what I'm referring to. I also understand a lot of DS players cried foul at the notion of goliaths, warlocks, or spellcasting bards. I'd rather have a 5e DS that emulates 4e (confined to the notions of the core game, with variants on races, backgrounds, and subclasses) than tries to emulate 2e (which practically requires its own version of the PHB).

JeffB said:

That article,for me, is just complete D&D gold.
Easter egg-If you look closely at the jpgs you can see a city name that later was hijacked fora infamous AD&D wizard whose abode still strikes fear into the hearts of adventurers...and was recently published again under 5e rules.

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That is neat! I also particularly enjoyed that Moldvay was a fellow Philip Josè Farmer fan.

Mouseferatu said:

I like D&D. I like D&D doing those subgenres. I don't care if other settings do those subgenres better, I want to play them in D&D and/or play the D&D version of them. Dark Sun isn't generic sword-and-sorcery or sword-and-planet, it's specifically a D&D version thereof, and that's part of what I really enjoy about it. I enjoy Eberron because it brings pulp and noir to D&D, not for the pulp and noir in a vacuum.

To me, these settings aren't D&D trying to emulate a genre, they are genre-flavored D&D. That still includes changing core assumptions. D&D without changes to the core assumptions isn't genre-flavored D&D, it's D&D with delusions of genre flavor.

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Serious question; Do you think Curse of Stahd was worse for not including Powers Checks, Fear/Horror/Madness, Curses, and Magic Alterations to Divination, Necromancy, and Summoning spells?

It wasn't until I played CoS that I realized how little those things really added to the setting. Aside from some heavy-handed ways to control your PCs, they do little to invoke a gothic horror mood. It still felt like Ravenloft. A few other settings could stand to let go of the extra "mechanical baggage" as well; does tracking Krynn's moons really do much to wizard PCs except include more bookkeeping? Did Action Points make-or-break Eberron's pulpiness? Was there ever a session of Planescape enhanced by going to Carceri and spending 10 minutes figuring out what the pluses were on your magic gear or if your cleric even had spellcasting ability?

I'm not saying each world should be a Realms clone, but I think a lot of settings opted for "different for different's sake", which bred a lot of the 2e problems with cross-compatibility.

I think it was worse for not having some element of fear/horror/Powers checks. They needn't have been the same as the old versions, or nearly as ubiquitous. I think it was worse for not having some limits on certain kinds of spells, though again, they could be a lot lighter than what came before.

Action Points? A good thing, if not essential. Different plusses in Planescape? Excess baggage.

But these are fairly minor, fiddly issues. I'm talking, in general, about much bigger ones, like not having "standard" clerics in Dark Sun, not having the unique planar setup in Eberron. I hated the changes to Strahd's backstory in CoS, and even more so the attempt to define the Dark Powers. (These aren't changes from the core, but they're examples of changes that drastically changed the feel of the setting and its major players. And they're probably why I didn't notice as many of the minor mechanical changes so much.)

We can absolutely quibble and negotiate about what level of mechanical difference is necessary, or which changes are appropriate vs. not. (I have no problem with dragonborn in Dark Sun, for instance, because they fit the mood/feel/aesthetic of Dark Sun. Tieflings, however, do not, because of Athas's planar isolation, so I wouldn't be okay with putting them in.)

But some changes from the core--additions, alterations, and omissions--are absolutely necessary. We can talk about specifics, but I will never budge on that as a general rule.

Remathilis said:

Serious question; Do you think Curse of Stahd was worse for not including Powers Checks, Fear/Horror/Madness, Curses, and Magic Alterations to Divination, Necromancy, and Summoning spells?

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What is the point of Ravenloft if it is just the same as Forgotten Realms?

Shasarak said:

What is the point of Ravenloft if it is just the same as Forgotten Realms?

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I must have missed where the Forgotten Realms has mists, Vistani, and an immortal vampire lord ruling it.

But if mechanics are what sets two settings apart, then does that mean Grayhawk is the same as the Forgotten Realms?

Shasarak said:

What is the point of Ravenloft if it is just the same as Forgotten Realms?

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I guess this is the bit that puzzles me. Are all the options in the players handbook meant to be applicable to every setting? Or is it a recipe book from which a DM can create a menu of applicable options for players?

If every option is available for every setting then, yes, the feel of every setting is going to be the same.

robus said:

I guess this is the bit that puzzles me. Are all the options in the players handbook meant to be applicable to every setting? Or is it a recipe book from which a DM can create a menu of applicable options for players?

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Depends who you ask, but I've always considered it a recipe book for the DM, not a list of options that are always available.

Remathilis said:

I'm probably in the minority in thinking this is a GOOD thing. I remember in the Halcyon days of 2e where every setting had its own variant on a class or race, each with mechanical alterations. For example, a Cleric (not even specialty priests, but BOG STANDARD CLERIC) got different domains in the PHB, Ravenloft, and Forgotten Realms. Athas practically had its own version of the Player's Handbook. The settings usually referenced the PHB, but more than a few of them tended to supersede it in more than just flavor.

Personally, the D&D settings should still reflect D&D first, and then their particular genre or flavor (gothic horror, sword-n-sorcery, pulp action, sword-n-sandal) second. They shouldn't require much more mechanical support than what the SCAG provided (a few races or racial variants, a new class and/or some subclasses, and a few backgrounds, feats, or spells). If the DM wants to emulate the genre further, he can start restricting classes and using DMG variant rules.

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I vehemently disagree. If all settings have all the same options, they essentially amount to nothing more than names on a map. Not every setting needs to be as different as Dark Sun, but I don't want thri-kreen PCs in Forgotten Realms, and I don't want regular clerics in Dark Sun. That's a big part of what makes those settings different.

Of course, it can be a fairly complicated question. For example, do dragonborn belong in Dark Sun? They very well could (particularly if you use them as dray - though I'd drop the links to regular dragon colors). Do tieflings belong? Probably not, on account of Dark Sun's planar isolation.

And take Mystara, for example. I read a blog post by Jeff Grubb recently where he talked about the original plan for updating the Known World to AD&D, and how to implement some of the things from the Gazetteers in AD&D (mostly via country-specific kits). One of the things he mentioned was spells, and how they were making a special list for spells easily available in Mystara, on account of the D&D spell lists being so much shorter than the AD&D spell lists. That, to me, sounds like a bad idea to bring over from one version to another, because that's just a limitation of the game system. The same would go for saying that all elves are multi-classed fighter/wizards. On the other hand, a good thing to bring over would be "no drow", because Mystara doesn't have drow. Instead they have Shadow Elves which are sort of similar to drow in that they live underground, but instead of being obsidian black they are albinos (because they live underground, far from the sun), and their society and physiology is quite different from that of the drow.

KahlessNestor said:

We already know what the release in November is. It's Xanathar's Guide to Everything. New subclasses and other mechanical crunch, not multiversal settings. Without a functional artificer, warforged, mystic, changeling, kalashtar, thri-kreen, etc, they are nowhere close to ready for other settings.

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That's why I said "next year's november release".