D&D 5E What is the most powerful spell?

snickersnax said:

OK, so this is clearly not the way the language makes sense. I have three arguments:

1)"... and unless you shift your attention to another creature’s thoughts, the creature can use its action on its turn to make an Intelligence check contested by your Intelligence check; if it succeeds, the spell ends." -
PHB p233. Meaning if you only do a surface scan, the target doesn't get a chance to end it with an intelligence check.

2) "Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell at all. An effect like crackling lightning is obvious, but a more subtle effect, such as an attempt to read a creature’s thoughts, typically goes unnoticed, unless a spell says otherwise." - PHB p204

3)https://rpg.stackexchange.com/quest...-the-target-aware-when-not-doing-a-deep-probe

Where you will find a more detailed discussion of the wording, but the general consensus is similar to my interpretation.

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But it is impossible to 1) ‘shift your attention to an other creature’, if a successful Wisdom save has already ended the spell.

‘Either way’ can only mean two ways in which the spell is still active: a ‘surface’ probe that is still active, or a ‘deep’ probe that is still active. The target can attempt to end the spell with an Intelligence check, either way, unless shifting away to an other target.

If shifting away, the old target can no longer attempt to end the spell with an Intelligence action. But of course, the new target can attempt to do so.

Stalker0 said:

I think plant growth is one of those spells that seems minor until you see it in its full glory. The thing is, this spell offers a lot of things other spells do not.

1) Its instantaneous. You cannot dispel it. It just happens.
2) No concentration. Many of the other spells in this list take concentration.
3) Its difficult/difficult terrain. 1/4 your normal speed...that is incredibly slow.
4) It has a huge radius, 100 foot radius....even some high level spells don't have that kind of radius.

Basically this spell is a ranged attackers dream and it combos very well with the other spells here. You know what sucks more than spike stone? Spike stones in a plant growth field.

In the right area, you can bomb the crap out of a melee focus creature. This is an opening spell against the Tarrasque! If you cast this on a melee creature with 30 foot speed, it will literally take it 7 rounds to get out of it! If your party hasn't pin-cushioned the heck out of it by then you are doing something very wrong.

The thing about druid and cleric spell is it is completely fine for them to be very situational, as they can swap out spells as they see fit. If your party knows they are going after melee focused monsters in a wooded area, this spell can be gold. I wouldn't ever take it otherwise...but that's fine, as I will take it when I need it.

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The above is useful analysis.



I just wanted to point out, it doesnt matter if a spell exists on a Nonwizard spell list. The spell itself is being evaluated, not a class.

For the sake of a standard reference point, the Wizard class is being used to evaluate the spells. All of these spells are in a spellbook, and the Wizard is choosing which ones to prepare for an adventure into the unknown. Will a particular spell probably be useful or not? The Wizard has to decide.

Generally, a higher situationality is a tradeoff for a higher effect (within reason). It is a bit of a gamble. So, if the caster finds a situation to use it, then congratulations, the caster wins a bigger more specialized effect.

Note, the base Wizard spell list too includes many highly situational spells. There is no real change if a tradition or other mechanic allows the Wizard to access additional spells with high situationality.

In sum, how does a spell compare to other spells?

In the case of Plant Growth, it can only be effective in wide open outdoors. It is almost as limiting as a spell that can only be cast on wide open waters.

But also in wide open outdoors, it is usually easy to go around the growth. There are no walls to force creatures thru it.

Perhaps the spell seems at best comparable to Spike Growth? If indoors use Spike Growth, and if outdoors consider either using Spike Growth or Plant Growth, depending on the situation.

Stalker0 said:

I understand your premise about a "universal barometer" but I will fiercely disagree with it. Its one thing to just rank spells, but when you actually are considering certain spells higher or lower than their base, there will be people that assume that the spell is "just bad", and that is not always true in the hands of the class meant to wield.

I will use the clerics prepare ability as a key note. Situational spells are garbage for a sorceror, but can be perfectly fine for a cleric who can swap to whatever he needs when the day comes. A melee oriented spell is garbage for a wizard, but might be fine and dandy for a cleric.

I don't feel you can just divorce the spell from the class so readily. All of that said, I am coming in to this at page 15 or so of the thread. If that's the way its going to be I will work within that constraint, I just think it provides a bad impression of certain spells that will not actually be the experience of players using those spells because of the class involved.

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I appreciate you working with the spells-as-spells constraint.

Eventually, after all the spells on their own are understood, it can be possible to have a separate list that notes effective synergies, combos with other spells and class features. But combos are highly, highly situational, and depend on special resource investments that are beyond the casting of a single spell. Synergies are more slippery to rank, but it is possible. Treat each combo as a separate *set*. Then rank the combo sets against each other. Some combos rank worse, and some combos rank better.

[MENTION=5889]Stalker0[/MENTION]

So, I dont forget. You are an Eldritch Knight choosing spells for the day. Over which spells would you prefer Warding Bond? And which spells would your rather have than it? About where does it feel?

Stalker0 said:

So if you hit a monster in the middle of the radius, it will take 8d4 damage in order to move out of that. Thats a bit lower than the 8d6 for the 3rd level fireball spells. If however you get them to go through the whole thing, that is 16d4 damage...quite a bit more than fireball. That said, it is difficult terrain, and can be a trap to boot. Casting this on a melee type, he is going to have a bad day.

I could see the case for 3rd level.

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I think it should too. I know it can be dispelled, or the caster concentration interrupted, but it's still a very powerful bit of magic for terrain control. At level 2.

In that IDEAL situation I had originally posted, in a canyon fitted to the radius, where a bunch of orcs (40) are powering through it, the maximum damage in a round is 2,560 hit points. Maybe I crunched the math wrong, it's not my strong suit.

Currently these are the rankings.



1st-level Spells

Good
Hideous Laughter 1

Excellent
Irresistable Dance 6
Entangle 1

2nd-level Spells

Setup
−good
Plant Growth 3

Good
Web 2

Excellent
Spike Growth 2



I am torn about these spells.

I am open to moving spells to a higher level. (I originally intended to use the gold color for a broken spell.) But in the case of Spike Growth and Entangle, there seems too little excitement about them for them to be suspected to be too powerful. Compare for example, a spell that really is broken, such as when Moonbeam was misunderstood, or even with Conjure Woodland Creatures - Pixies. Eight Pixies at once are broken. Despite their 1 hp, making them glass canons, their spells and flight make them difficult to hit, and their CR seems underestimated. When a spell really is broken, there tends to be a widespread buzz about it. Spike Growth and Entangle seem to be missing that. They are awesome spells but seem to be safe and fair in their current levels, compared to the spells around them.

Possibly, Conjure Woodland Beings splits into a Pixies versioin and No-Pixies version, and rank separately? Maybe better, put a note to − Treat Pixies ≈ CR ½ (or 1)? Maybe split all conjure spells per notable creature?

For Plant Growth, it ranks as Setup because wide open outdoors is a significant prerequisite/requirement. It is a Good choice if there. But it is hard for me to rank it better. I look at the Rope Trick spell. If I had to choose between preparing Rope Trick and Plant Growth, I would rather pick Rope Trick. Heh, I feel bad, but I seem unable to get enthusiastic about Plant Growth.

There are spells that are noticeably powerful for their spell slot level, yet not quite powerful enough for the next spell slot level. Generally, these correspond to the Excellent category of each spell slot level, but might need finetuning.

A way to resolve this is by ranking the spells by caster class levels.

So, a spell like Entangle would still use the 1st level spell slot, but the spell itself would only become available later, when reaching a 2nd level class level.

Similarly, Spike Growth would use the 2nd level spell slot, but only become available as a 4th level caster.



Based on my preliminary calculations, these divisions by caster levels, can enable spell point system that seems to work well.

Yaarel said:

Similarly, Spike Growth would use the 2nd level spell slot, but only become available as a 4th level caster.

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Basically you are creating the concept of "greater versions" of certain level spells. Its an interesting idea, but all it does is reduce the number of spells players can draw from at certain levels...so it forces them to use "lamer" spells for a time, but I don't know if that's a great solution.

Yaarel said:

[MENTION=5889]Stalker0[/MENTION]

So, I dont forget. You are an Eldritch Knight choosing spells for the day. Over which spells would you prefer Warding Bond? And which spells would your rather have than it? About where does it feel?

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So now that I am embracing the concept that only a wizard or EK is casting this spell, I think your initial lower ranking for the spell is fine. Wizards and EKs aren't casting these spells. They want this spell cast on them, not the other way around.