Spell Volumes

I was looking at some old stuff and noticed that more than a few spells had odd areas or volumes they affected.

I've long known that Fireball says one thing in the spell descriptor block and something else in the text on this topic: The descriptor says 2 inch radius, the spell text says "32000 cubic feet (or yards)".

But other spells, such as Rock to Mud, talk about cubes of 1 inch/level. (with Inch meaning 10 feet indoors and 10 yards outdoors.)

Rock to Mud actually says 2' per level cube, as does Mud to rock. The volume at minimum caster level for Mud to Rock would mean that a muddy track can be transformed into a Roman style high road twenty feet wide, and a shade under 38 miles long.

Yeah, miles. That's what it works out to when you take a volume and expand it geometrically by level instead of linearly. (Math: a 10th level caster will have a cube twenty yards by twenty yards by twenty yards. That's 80,000 cubic yards, or 2,160,000 cubic feet.).

Has anyone else noticed this, or had to deal with it?

BTW: Fireball, as written, has a volume that goes up outdoors, but it's range doesn't. A fifth level caster, firing a ground-burst at maximum range, is inside the blast radius. 33,000 cubic yards of volume, with the specific instructions to expand the spread to conform with available space, means that the bottom half of the sphere (being blocked by the ground) gets added as an additional layer on the outside of the remaining hemisphere. The result is a hemisphere with a radius of about 27.5 yards, or about 82 feet.

AD&D Player's Handbook said:

Fireball (Evocation)
Level: 3 Components: V, S
Range: 10" + 1"/level Casting Time:3 segments
Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: 1/2
Area of Effect: 2"radius sphere
Explanation/Description: A fireball is an explosive burst of flame, which detonates with a low roar, and delivers damage proportionate to the level of the magic-user who cast it, i.e. 1 six-sided die (d6) for each level of experience of the spell caster. Exception: Magic fireball wands deliver 6 die fireballs (6d6), magic staves with this capability deliver 8 die fireballs, and scroll spells of this type deliver a fireball of from 5 to 10 dice (d6 + 4) of damage. The burst of the fireball does not expend a considerable amount of pressure, and the burst will generally conform to the shape of the area in which it occurs, thus covering an area equal to its normal spherical volume. [The area which is covered by the fireball is a total volume of roughly 33,000 cubic feet (or yards)]. Besides causing damage to creatures, the fireball ignites all combustible materials within its burst radius, and the heat of the fireball will melt soft metals such as gold, copper, silver, etc. Items exposed to the spell's effects must be rolled for to determine if they are affected. Items with a creature which makes its saving throw are considered as unaffected. The magic-user points his or her finger and speaks the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A streak flashes from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body prior to attaining the prescribed range, flowers into the fireball If creatures fail their saving throws, they all take full hit point damage from the blast.
Those who make saving throws manage to dodge, fall flat or roll aside, taking 1/2 the full hit point damage - each and every one within the blast area. The material component of this spell is a tiny ball composed of bat guano and sulphur.

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Greenfield said:

BTW: Fireball, as written, has a volume that goes up outdoors, but it's range doesn't.

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You have that exactly backwards:

1E PH said:

IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT OUTDOOR SCALE BE USED FOR RANGE ONLY, NEVER FOR SPELL AREA OF EFFECT

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All-caps emphasis is original to the PH. 2E did away with the scaling mechanics of 1E entirely in favor of straight-up distance/range=number of feet regardless of indoors/outdoors/whatever IIRC, but it certainly didn't ADD area of effect expansion outdoors which 1E so emphatically shouted that you should never do.

Not to be argumentative, but the rule has always been that specific overrides general. The spell text, which I included, includes the specific reference that the volume is 33,000 cubic feet or yards. That says, quite clearly, that for this spell the radius/volume scales.

So yeah, Fireball is the exception in that volume does go up outdoors.

Greenfield said:

Not to be argumentative, but the rule has always been that specific overrides general. The spell text, which I included, includes the specific reference that the volume is 33,000 cubic feet or yards. That says, quite clearly, that for this spell the radius/volume scales.

So yeah, Fireball is the exception in that volume does go up outdoors.

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Well looking at the text I have at hand here, which is not the black cover edition, it does not mention yards at all. I think it's safe to say this would be an error in the black cover text, not a rule. With D&D in particular one should never assume intent if aberrations in the books are more easily explained by bad writing or crappy editing.

2E does, it seems, still retain different movement rates between dungeon and outdoors (feet vs. yards), but says nothing I can find about different range or spell area/volume. As for spells like Rock to Mud, again you can thank bumbling writing and editing. They simply fail to consistently write what they mean. When they first talk about spell areas of effect they even describe what it is they're TRYING to say when they talk about cube volumes:

Area of Effect: This lists the creatures, volume, dimensions, weight, etc., that can be affected by the spell. Spells with an area or volume that can be shaped by the caster will have a minimum dimension of 10 feet in any direction, unless the spell description specifically states otherwise. Thus, a cloud that has a 10-foot cube per caster level might, when cast by a 12th-level caster, have dimensions 10' × 10' × 120', 20' × 20' × 30', or any similar combination that totals twelve 10-foot cubes. Combinations such as 5' × 10' × 240' are not possible unless specifically allowed.

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So when TransRtM SEEMS to give an area that can result in an effect MILES long it's just an error. What I read for area of effect for rock to mud is:

20-ft. cube/level

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Not the symbol ", nor the symbol ', but the abbreviation "ft." All of this is surely a product of TRYING to edit out the scaling mechanics of 1E as I suggested. Not fully removing the use of the symbol " as a scale measurement for movement, range/distance, and areas of effect, and even when editing AGAIN for release of new-cover versions they only introduced more errors even while they may be removing others. I don't really blame editors as I used to. Editing game rule books like these is a monumental task requiring an attention to details beyond proper spelling and grammar. But you can't take even well-edited rule books for D&D as if they are tablets graven in stone without error. You have to be able to question even those elements that might seem at first glance to be "clearly stated". Is Fireball REALLY meant to be the sole exception throughout the game that in an all-new first-ever change will triple its volume (and I note that it doesn't say under what circumstances this new unique feature should apply where the volume becomes yards rather than feet)? Is Rock to Mud REALLY meant to be capable of an area of effect that extends for MILES? Or are these just simple errors that are only astonishing when people assume them to be infallible imperatives?

Greenfield said:

BTW: Fireball, as written, has a volume that goes up outdoors, but it's range doesn't. A fifth level caster, firing a ground-burst at maximum range, is inside the blast radius. 33,000 cubic yards of volume, with the specific instructions to expand the spread to conform with available space, means that the bottom half of the sphere (being blocked by the ground) gets added as an additional layer on the outside of the remaining hemisphere. The result is a hemisphere with a radius of about 27.5 yards, or about 82 feet.

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1e PH said:

Fireball (Evocation)
Level: 3 Components: V, S
Range: 10" + 1"/level Casting Time:3 segments
Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: 1/2
Area of Effect: 2"radius sphere

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I really think that range is a typo and is supposed to be 10" + 10" per level (so up to 180' for a 5th level caster). Otherwise yes, the caster is going to hit herself far more often than she'd like.

One thing I did a long time ago was convert all ranges, AoE,s, etc. into straight feet, dropping the 'inch' notation, and listed each separately for indoors and outdoors where relevant. Pleasant side effect: this also cut me loose from always having it have to be a 3-to-1 ratio of difference.

So, looking at a few spells that happen to be on the same screen as fireball, for my game the ranges show as: (all distances in feet)

Flaming Sphere: 10 indoors, 25 outdoors
Forcecage: 10/level indoors, 20/level outdoors
Forget: 30 indoors, 100 outdoors

Lanefan

Greenfield said:

I was looking at some old stuff and noticed that more than a few spells had odd areas or volumes they affected.

I've long known that Fireball says one thing in the spell descriptor block and something else in the text on this topic: The descriptor says 2 inch radius, the spell text says "32000 cubic feet (or yards)".

But other spells, such as Rock to Mud, talk about cubes of 1 inch/level. (with Inch meaning 10 feet indoors and 10 yards outdoors.)

Rock to Mud actually says 2' per level cube, as does Mud to rock. The volume at minimum caster level for Mud to Rock would mean that a muddy track can be transformed into a Roman style high road twenty feet wide, and a shade under 38 miles long.

Yeah, miles. That's what it works out to when you take a volume and expand it geometrically by level instead of linearly. (Math: a 10th level caster will have a cube twenty yards by twenty yards by twenty yards. That's 80,000 cubic yards, or 2,160,000 cubic feet.).

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Unless you put a minimum thickness or dimension on it, yeah - it gets crazy.

Either that, or they meant one 2x2x2 cube per level and worded it badly. Wouldn't be the only place this happened.

And it's not just restricted to volume. Take a look at Reverse Gravity, particularly the duration. Look closely. Then think it through...

Yes, it really does mean that if cast outdoors in the open anyone in the area could "fall" something like 45 MILES (!!!) upward before the spell expires...and then have to worry about coming back down, if the cold or radiation or lack of oxygen in the stratosphere hasn't already done 'em in.

And what happens if you cast this on a ship* at sea?

* - preferably one you're not standing on at the time.

Has anyone else noticed this, or had to deal with it?

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Yep. I ended up dealing with it via the sledgehammer approach: I went through and rewrote every spell in the game (modified 1e) as part of putting them online for my players. Massively tedious to do, but worth it I think.

Lanefan

To clarify: I misquoted the volume on Rock to Mud/Mud to Rock.

The volume is 2" cube per level, not 2" per level cube. I recalled though that, when asked, the Sage said that it really ment 2 1" cubes per level. I had, at the time, no idea how what was written could be read that way. Still don't.

To the Man in the Funny Hat: I included the exact cut and paste from the black cover edition. I'll quote it again.

AD&D Player's Handbook said:

Fireball (Evocation)
Level: 3 Components: V, S
Range: 10" + 1"/level Casting Time:3 segments
Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: 1/2
Area of Effect: 2"radius sphere
Explanation/Description: A fireball is an explosive burst of flame, which detonates with a low roar, and delivers damage proportionate to the level of the magic-user who cast it, i.e. 1 six-sided die (d6) for each level of experience of the spell caster. Exception: Magic fireball wands deliver 6 die fireballs (6d6), magic staves with this capability deliver 8 die fireballs, and scroll spells of this type deliver a fireball of from 5 to 10 dice (d6 + 4) of damage. The burst of the fireball does not expend a considerable amount of pressure, and the burst will generally conform to the shape of the area in which it occurs, thus covering an area equal to its normal spherical volume. [The area which is covered by the fireball is a total volume of roughly 33,000 cubic feet (or yards)]. Besides causing damage to creatures, the fireball ignites all combustible materials within its burst radius, and the heat of the fireball will melt soft metals such as gold, copper, silver, etc. Items exposed to the spell's effects must be rolled for to determine if they are affected. Items with a creature which makes its saving throw are considered as unaffected. The magic-user points his or her finger and speaks the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A streak flashes from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body prior to attaining the prescribed range, flowers into the fireball If creatures fail their saving throws, they all take full hit point damage from the blast.
Those who make saving throws manage to dodge, fall flat or roll aside, taking 1/2 the full hit point damage - each and every one within the blast area. The material component of this spell is a tiny ball composed of bat guano and sulphur.

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Emphasis mine.

Consider even the indoor version: In a rule set where the standard was that one map inch represented 10 feet, and the 10x10 corridor was the dungeon standard, that spell was all but unusable indoors. Wherever it detonated in a region with 10 foot ceilings (again, standard for the edition), it would expand from detonation point to fill 33 10x10x10 cubes. So in a 30 x 40 room (12 squares), it will fill that completely then expand through open doors and passages until it had used all 33 squares. Firing that into just about any room, which pretty much required that you have an open door or passage, will include the party in the blast area.

And that's without even considering the outdoor expansion that you disagree with.

Over all I've met many people who look at the written rules and say "That's wrong.". Not just for this spell or this edition. I've seen people argue that this spell can't light things on fire because the "instantaneous" duration isn't enough time to ignite them. Same argument for melting soft metals etc.

When someone looks at the rules and says that they're wrong, my answer is always the same: "Here's the book. Argue with it. Let me know when it changes its mind."

I won't be that rude or blunt to you, but the "or yards" text is in there, in black and white. The range is in there, in black and white. The written rules can't be "against the rules".

I saw a 3.5 conversion of the Metamorphose Liquids spell (2e). It said 1' per level cube. As in, one cubic foot at 1st level, 8 cubic feet at 2nd. 27 cubic feet at 3rd level etc. At 20th level it's 8,000 cubic feet.

By the way, a cubic foot is about seven gallons, seven pints. A classic "Hogshead" barrel is 63 gallons, or 8 cubic feet. So a full cask of water to wine at 2nd level.

That conversion was obviously wrong, by the way. It was in D&D Wiki, not an official source, but you can see how easy it is for someone to write up a volume so as to be completely unplayable.

Yikes

Greenfield said:

Not to be argumentative, but the rule has always been that specific overrides general. The spell text, which I included, includes the specific reference that the volume is 33,000 cubic feet or yards. That says, quite clearly, that for this spell the radius/volume scales.

So yeah, Fireball is the exception in that volume does go up outdoors.

Click to expand...

Are there other spells that call out an area of effect exception like this? It has been years since I played AD&D (1e or 2e), so I cannot swear to it, but I don't recall seeing this in any other spells. If I am correct, I think this is more likely a typo in the PHB; I know my group always treated that text as a typo.

Not that I can think of off hand.

More than a few, though, seem to conflate the "2 inch cube per level" with the " 2 1 inch cubes per level" that the Sage claimed the volumes to be.

But then the Sage has argued that spells like the 3.5 Freedom of Movement don't protect against things explicitly called out in the spell description, so the classic claim that the Sage rulings were "Instantly official" got discarded a long time ago.