A discussion of metagame concepts in game design

Sadras · Jul 20, 2018

So @Aldarc I guess for me it is interesting they use the words suffuse and permeate a lot in the texts you quoted from the books. One could possibly argue does that make mundane items/beings magical because of this invisible magical force which weaves through everything.
You equated the magical essence to radiation - so you could say everything has been radiated but is that the same as saying everything is radiation? I'm not entirely convinced on this line of thought.

However, if you go with the idea that whatever God creates is Godly then I don't have a counter argument. Nothing springs to mind.

In any event interesting chat.

PS: One of my high level campaigns is touching on philosophical and cosmological topics in-game as the characters are trying understand the multiverse/setting, this would be a great additional subject to incorporate in their investigation. So thanks.

Ovinomancer · Jul 20, 2018

Aldarc said:
Maybe. Possibly to an extent. For me, it comes from how saturated with magic everything in D&D's worldview is and how the cosmology of the world have implications and effects in the Prime. Our norm is simply not their norm. Sure we cannot understand it and we inescapably think from modernist perspectives, but nothing about their world is "mundane" or free from magic. You can't be free from magic anymore than you can be free from radioactive forces. It happens to you and within you all the time. The game even presumes that you are infused with magic. We see this idea of the pervasiveness of magic in the wizard flavor text:
Or with spellcasting:

Not everyone may be a spell-caster, but everyone is presumed quintessentially magical in D&D.

In contrast to the stark scientific materialism of our Modernist worldview, D&D unequivocally asserts that all creatures have souls! See the spell description for Resurrection and Magic Jar. And I would say that, yes, the presence of souls would be indicative of magical forces that are an innate part of D&D's anthropology. And likewise see the description of "ki" from monks:
Though monks are the only ones who may call this energy ki and harness in ways particular to their class, the text here indicates that this magical ki energy flows naturally through all living bodies. This would naturally include creatures who take up the mantle of "fighter" or that Level 0 Joe Dirt Farmer.

And we see that the world is innately supernatural and magic in the Ranger and Druid description as well:
D&D presupposes an incredibly different composition of human beings and the natural world. The world operates by a different set of physics and metaphysics. This presents the idea that nature - by which we should not distinguish between humans and everything else - has an inherent magical power.

There is not even a concept of mundane words and music in D&D! The bard description, for example, asserts this about "the worlds of D&D":

But why stop there? Let me drop this 5E PHB piece as well:
So, yes, [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION], D&D does indeed have a baseline presumption about magic that amounts to more than a "neat setting idea." Also, I just noticed [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], that 5e established that this includes "every rock" in D&D as well.

/mic drop

I'm happy that you feel you got in a burn on your setting idea. For the record, I agree D&D has a high level of magic assumed, but still think your claims go past that. Still a neat setting idea.

/picks up the mic [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] accidently dropped and hands it back

Aldarc · Jul 20, 2018

Ovinomancer said:
but still think your claims go past that. Still a neat setting idea.

The 5e PHB backs up my position and then goes several steps further. It's time to admit that you were wrong, learn from your mistakes, and move on.

/picks up the mic [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] accidently dropped and hands it back

And you accuse me of being dismissive and curt? :erm:

Sadras said:
You equated the magical essence to radiation - so you could say everything has been radiated but is that the same as saying everything is radiation? I'm not entirely convinced on this line of thought.

This would get us into a debate of analogies and semantics. So again for example, the humanoid soul in D&D is magical. It is part of the humanoid person. Is the humanoid person magical? I would say "yes."

pemerton · Jul 20, 2018

Dragons in D&D can fly, although that would not be possible in the real world.

Fighters in 5e can choose when to push themselves extra hard, knowing that if they burn their reserves now they won't get them back without a rest, which is not too different from how people in the real world can do that.

But fighters in 5e are magical while dragon flight is not?

I don't get it.

Sadras · Jul 20, 2018

pemerton said:
But fighters in 5e are magical while dragon flight is not?

I don't get it.

@Aldarc's position is that both the Fighter and the Dragon are magical.
Your comparison above compares a noun with an action.

Sadras · Jul 20, 2018

Aldarc said:
This would get us into a debate of analogies and semantics. So again for example, the humanoid soul in D&D is magical. It is part of the humanoid person. Is the humanoid person magical? I would say "yes."

Okay so a humanoid soul, essence of life, is a source of power which is valuable in the Nine Hells and elsewhere. A rock less so, because it doesn't have a soul, and therefore no source of power. But going back to the humanoid soul example, this reverts to whatever God creates (including life) is Godly (magical), hence the value in a humanoid soul.

Therefore this position is creation is an exercise in magic and therefore whatever springs forth from this creation would carry a semblance of magic. That seems like a reasonable position to have.

Touching on something you mentioned earlier about us viewing things in a modernist mindset:

I don't know if the in-game NPC farmer in the medieval fantasy world would believe himself to be magical or have an essence of magic about him. My impression is that generally magic would be something feared and something alien to him. So to call our view on the D&D world as being modernistic is not essentially true, since your typical medieval farmer would have a similar view as ours.

Maxperson · Jul 20, 2018

Shasarak said:
It does not make the world magical. Casting spells literally is draining the world of magic, defiling it so to speak.

Except explicitly not. Darksun defiles use the life force of plants, not magic from anywhere. It takes the life essence and then converts it to magic. It doesn't steal magic from plants and then use it.

Why would you take damage from someone just drawing the magic to cast a spell if they were not taking the magic from you?

Having your life force taken hurts.

Just for the sake of argument, though, let's assume that life force = magic. It would only do so for Darksun, as that world is the only one where the use of life force to power magic is true.

Maxperson · Jul 20, 2018

Aldarc said:
But why stop there? Let me drop this 5E PHB piece as well:
So, yes, [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION], D&D does indeed have a baseline presumption about magic that amounts to more than a "neat setting idea." Also, I just noticed [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], that 5e established that this includes "every rock" in D&D as well.

/mic drop

So they made it like the force, where magic flows through everything. They did not make everything into magic. You pick up that rock and throw it at a creature weak to magic and it's not going to have any increased effect. That rock is mundane. The force flowing through it is not. You can draw magic from the rock, but the rock is not magical. Suffused with magical energy is not the same as being magical.

/hands the mic back

pemerton · Jul 20, 2018

Sadras said:
Your comparison above compares a noun with an action.

OK:

in D&D can fly, although that would not be possible in the real world.

Fighters in 5e can choose when to push themselves extra hard, knowing that if they burn their reserves now they won't get them back without a rest, which is not too different from how people in the real world can do that.

But fighters' second wind and action surge in 5e are magical, while dragon flight is not?

I still don't get it.

pemerton · Jul 20, 2018

Also, life force - whatever the hell that is - isn't a magical phenomon, but a fighter choosing to draw on his/her reserves so as to push him-/herself hard is?

I don't get that either.

A discussion of metagame concepts in game design

Sadras

Legend

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!

Aldarc

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pemerton

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Sadras

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Sadras

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

pemerton

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pemerton

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