When did mixing editions become unusual?

Dessert Nomad

Adventurer
Just how often are 1st level characters going up against monsters with AC1 or better?

They're going to encounter monsters with AC1 or better or worse quite frequently!

If you calculate THAC0 correctly and intend to use it in place of the tables, the problem happens only for thieves or MU at AC 0 or higher when a THAC0 calculation implies you need 21 to hit, yet you could in theory still hit on a modified 20 using the table's repeated 20s rule.

This is not correct. The 1st level character needs a 20 to hit AC0 OR AC1 by the tables. If you take their THAC0 as 20 and use that in the calculation, you'll get that you need a 19 to hit AC1, 18 for AC2, and so on, even though the correct values are 20 to hit AC1, 19 for AC2, and so on. You hit the '6 20s' rule no matter what you do, because it affects AC0, which is the base of THAC0 calculations.

That means you have to take the '6 20s' part of the table into account to get the right result, which means it does come up in play, and the the statement of yours that I disagreed with is that the '6 20s' part of the table doesn't come up in play. The easiest way is to treat it as though the character's THAC0 is 21 and calculate from there. It's not actually difficult to do at all, but you can't ignore the multiple 20s in the table and get the correct results.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Celebrim

Legend
This is not correct.

Oh really? Then why the heck did you just repeat back to me everything I just wrote?

That means you have to take the '6 20s' part of the table into account to get the right result, which means it does come up in play, and the the statement of yours that I disagreed with is that the '6 20s' part of the table doesn't come up in play.

It doesn't BY YOUR OWN EXPLANATION, WHICH IS REALLY JUST MY EXPLANATION REWORDED. The only time you'd get incorrect results would be against AC 0 or higher, which is like Red Dragon territory in 1e AD&D and unlikely to happen. AC's and defenses in general are miserably low in AD&D most of the time, even for levels of play where they don't need to be. For discussion of that problem, see some of my other writing on EnWorld.
 

Dessert Nomad

Adventurer
Oh really? Then why the heck did you just repeat back to me everything I just wrote?
It doesn't BY YOUR OWN EXPLANATION, WHICH IS REALLY JUST MY EXPLANATION REWORDED.

I literally didn't agree with you. I'd quote, but anyone who thinks I did do this can scroll up and read that I pointedly stated the opposite of your claim that the only difference was when dealing with an AC of 1 or better. I think the problem is that you've forgotten that 'better' is 'lower' in 1st edition, and are RANTING IN ALL CAPS because you're thinking 'lower' is 'worse'

The only time you'd get incorrect results would be against AC 0 or higher, which is like Red Dragon territory in 1e AD&D and unlikely to happen. AC's and defenses in general are miserably low in AD&D most of the time, even for levels of play where they don't need to be. For discussion of that problem, see some of my other writing on EnWorld.

"AC 0 or higher" is not Red Dragon territory, it's 'more than 90% of the monster manual' territory. An unarmored human with no dex modifier is AC10, that's higher than 0. So is a Purple Worm, with AC6 (6 higher than 0) which is the same as a standard Orc, or indeed anyone wearing studded leather and shield. I don't know if you're trolling or if you genuinely forgot that higher armor is worse in 1st and 2nd edition AD&D, but the phrase 'ACs... are miserably low in AD&D' doesn't make sense, as lower AC = better AC.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I literally didn't agree with you.

You did. But you either didn't understand what I wrote, or you are hung up on terms of art regarding how we describe AD&D's counterintuitive AC.

I think the problem is that you've forgotten that 'better' is 'lower' in 1st edition, and are RANTING IN ALL CAPS because you're thinking 'lower' is 'worse'

No, I understand perfectly how AC in 1st AD&D works. I played the game for nearly 20 years. I think the problem is that you are used to using one terminology for describing AC getting better, and I'm using a different one, but it is perfectly clear from context that I'm talking that when I mean a "higher" AC I mean 'higher up the to hit table, ei better" and not "numerically higher". So, when you put on a ring of protection +2 or a wield a shield +2, those "+2" modifiers make your AC better, that is you use a higher row in the to hit tables, or conversely your AC gets numerically lower. A "-10 AC" is higher and therefore better than a 5 AC, even though on a number line -10 is to the left of 5 and is a lower number.

That I understood how the math works is perfectly clear, and I still maintain that is rare for a first level character to fight something with a 0 or HIGHER AC. If you prefer the term "lower" to describe how a 0 AC is better than a 5 AC, fine - I do not care. I know just what you mean. But the point is for AC's between 10 and 1, THAC0 would still work just perfectly and be perfectly congruent with the rules provided you assigned it correctly. By the time your thief PC got to the point that he was encountering the rare creature with an AC better than 1 ("lower" as you put it), his THAC0 likely would have improved as well and the range of AC's where THAC0 worked would still overlap what he commonly encountered. Thus, as I said, in practice those six 20's (much less the 21 that came after it) rarely came up. The two tables with their slightly different procedures of play would be using the same rules, and the table using THAC0 had the same number of edge cases to remember as the one that didn't.
 

Dessert Nomad

Adventurer
You did. But you either didn't understand what I wrote, or you are hung up on terms of art regarding how we describe AD&D's counterintuitive AC.

I understand what you wrote, and that it what you wrote is factually incorrect. The fact that you are using words in the opposite of their usual meaning obfuscates that, but doesn't change the fact that a 1st level thief of MU requires a 20 to hit AC1 in 1st edition AD&D.

No, I understand perfectly how AC in 1st AD&D works. I played the game for nearly 20 years. I think the problem is that you are used to using one terminology for describing AC getting better, and I'm using a different one, but it is perfectly clear from context that I'm talking that when I mean a "higher" AC I mean 'higher up the to hit table, ei better" and not "numerically higher".

No, it's not perfectly clear that when you said 'higher' you meant 'lower', tat's just a god-awful choice of terminology that no one should ever choose to use. But taking the terminology out of the way, the problem is that your statements are simply incorrect AND my statements pointing out the error are not the same as yours.

That I understood how the math works is perfectly clear, and I still maintain that is rare for a first level character to fight something with a 0 or HIGHER AC. If you prefer the term "lower" to describe how a 0 AC is better than a 5 AC, fine - I do not care.
I know just what you mean. But the point is for AC's between 10 and 1, THAC0 would still work just perfectly and be perfectly congruent with the rules

As I said and you ignored, by the tables, a level 1 MU/T requires a 20 to hit AC0, but also requires a 20 to hit AC1, then a 19 for AC2, and so on. If you ignore the 'repeated 20s' part of the table and simply base your hit chances off of his "to hit armor class 0" of 20, you will think that he needs a 19 to hit AC1, 18 for AC2, and so on. Which does not match the table. So you are simply and plainly wrong about the numbers in this case. Note that I did not use 'higher' or 'lower' in the above at all to avoid the confusion.

provided you assigned it correctly.

Assigning it correctly requires taking into account the fact that AC0 lies in the '6 20s' section of the table. Your statement earlier and below was that one does not need to take into account the '6 20s' section of the table. I have no idea why you're vehemently defending this incorrect assertion, but there's a weird tendency for people talking about 1e to do that sort of thing.

Let me make it simple: If you go to this site http://www.nerdovore.com/2013/07/1st-edition-adnd-attack-and.html, it has the old to-hit tables. I've also attached a copy. Look at the table for Magic Users and Illusionists or the Table for Thieves and assassins at level 1, and see that the number needed to hit AC 0 is 20. If you take simply take this as their THAC0 and do not account for the fact that you're in the 6 20s section of the table, then to hit AC1 you add 1 to the die, and would hit on a 19, while for AC5 you add 5 to the die and so hit on a 15. But if you actually look up AC1 and AC5 on the table, you actually need a 20 to hit AC1 and a 16 to hit AC5. Really simple, and I didn't use the words 'higher' or 'lower'.

1st Edition ADnD Attack and Assassination Tables.jpg
 

Celebrim

Legend
I understand what you wrote, and that it what you wrote is factually incorrect.

No, you don't, and no it isn't, and my aren't you tedious.

The fact that you are using words in the opposite of their usual meaning obfuscates that, but doesn't change the fact that a 1st level thief of MU requires a 20 to hit AC1 in 1st edition AD&D.

This is silly. The fact that a 1st level thief or MU requires 20 to hit AC1 in 1e AD&D is something I accounted for already. The fact is that AD&D AC works opposite what you'd expect by having lower numbers represent higher ACs is not my fault but an artifact of the system, but if it makes you feel better I will simply use "better" and "worse" in the future if I have any reason to keep up this discussion.

But taking the terminology out of the way, the problem is that your statements are simply incorrect AND my statements pointing out the error are not the same as yours.

Oh really? Here is my statement:

If you calculate THAC0 correctly and intend to use it in place of the tables, the problem happens only for thieves or MU at AC 0 or higher when a THAC0 calculation implies you need 21 to hit...

And here is your statement:

The easiest way is to treat it as though the character's THAC0 is 21 and calculate from there.

So somehow you think I don't understand the problem, and yet we both came to the same conclusion. You think I don't get it, yet or math works out the same? How can I be plainly and simply wrong and yet we both said exactly the same thing?

Ok, but you then point out:

It's not actually difficult to do at all, but you can't ignore the multiple 20s in the table and get the correct results.

And that's true, but then I've also pointed that out as well when wrote in my explanation:

...the problem happens only for thieves or MU at AC 0 or [better] when a THAC0 calculation implies you need 21 to hit, yet you could in theory still hit on a modified 20 using the table's repeated 20s rule.

So you are wrong about everything. You didn't understand what I wrote. You keep making assertions about it that are false.

And, my further point is, it is a rare occasion for a thief or MU with a THAC0 of 21 to be attacking an opponent with an AC of 0 or better anyway, and somewhat rarer still that in addition the thief or MU has a positive modifier to hit in the first place, so this small exception forced by the repeated 20's to how you'd handle the game using THAC0 rarely comes up. And if it did come up, well exception based design was the norm anyway. The repeated 20's are themselves an exception, so its not like the DM wouldn't be mentally prepared to make exceptions. Again, I didn't use that process of play, but it doesn't seem like a particularly hard one to keep track of so its entirely possible there were tables in 1981 who were using THAC0 and using the RAW.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
Guys, gals, and orcs. It was dirt simple to figure out Thac0. Jasper rolls 4d6 times removes the lowest. Rolls 5 d6 for his 5th level thief. Writes 10 to -10 across the bottom of his note book paper. Grabs Celebrim's dm screen and copies the row.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Guys, gals, and orcs. It was dirt simple to figure out Thac0. Jasper rolls 4d6 times removes the lowest. Rolls 5 d6 for his 5th level thief. Writes 10 to -10 across the bottom of his note book paper. Grabs Celebrim's dm screen and copies the row.

Err, Celebrim grabs his DM screen and makes one row for each weapon Jasper wields. Then he grabs the Weapon vs. AC table from the Unearthed Arcana, modified the rows accordingly, factors in any magic item bonuses and adjustments for STR or DEX and now I know exactly what Jasper needs to hit anything without looking it up. I do this for each PC, then I binder clip the new sheet of tables to the DM screen over the top of the underlying 'to hit' tables for reference to create a set of tables that represent the actual PC's in the game without any need to cross reference anything. Adjust the tables occasionally as they get new gear or their THAC0 changes.

Players can off course do the same, but since I don't normally tell them the armor class and armor (class) bonus of the opponent they are fighting, it doesn't do them a lot of good.
 
Last edited:

Dessert Nomad

Adventurer
In practice, the repeated 20's then 21's rule never came up in play anyway...As such, most tables could simply ignore the existence of those rules as weird edge cases that never really came up in play and they'd be playing exactly the same game as the tables that very much knew about those rules and how they worked but never used them because they were weird edge cases that never really came up in play.
This is silly. The fact that a 1st level thief or MU requires 20 to hit AC1 in 1e AD&D is something I accounted for already.

If you accounted for it, then the rule in fact came up in play, and your statement that it didn't come up in play, that tables could simply ignore the existence of those rules, and that the repeated 20s only apply in weird edge cases is incorrect. That is the statement of yours that I initially disagreed with, and all of the dancing around is irrelevant to this minor fact about first edition hit tables, and has involved far more effort than it's worth. If you don't want to think that accounting for the '6 20s' part of the table means that you aren't ignoring that part of the table, nothing I post will change your mind anyway.
 

Celebrim

Legend
If you accounted for it, then the rule in fact came up in play, and your statement that it didn't come up in play, that tables could simply ignore the existence of those rules, and that the repeated 20s only apply in weird edge cases is incorrect.

I ran 1e AD&D tables for like 20 years, and I can't remember a single time I was consulting that part of the table.

First, a quote from the DMG. Bottom of page 73:

"Armor class below 10 is not possible except through cursed items. Armor class above 2 is easily possible due to magical bonuses and dexterity bonuses." - Gary Gygax

So for all you claiming that I've gotten the terminology backwards, I am using exactly the same conventions used by Gygax in the DMG. It seems I'm the one that remembers how to speak in proper 1e terminology after all.

That is the statement of yours that I initially disagreed with, and all of the dancing around is irrelevant to this minor fact about first edition hit tables, and has involved far more effort than it's worth. If you don't want to think that accounting for the '6 20s' part of the table means that you aren't ignoring that part of the table, nothing I post will change your mind anyway.

And there goes OverlordOcelot with the goal posts on his back zipping right out of the stadium.

By accounting for it, I mean that I said that if someone used THAC0 as their procedure of play, then all they'd need to do was set the THAC0 to 21 and remember that a natural 20 still hit in the unlikely event that their first level thief was suicidally attacking something with 0 or better AC. It's the 1st level thief attacking something with 0 AC that I consider the weird edge case. To consider that statement incorrect, you have to show that opponents with 0 AC were common foes for low level characters. Looked at the MM lately? They weren't. The first time you encounter a 0 AC is likely a Stone Giant or an Anklyosaurus - not things you'll be facing early on.

There was nothing like the uniformly higher progression of AC you'd see in 3.X or later editions. It wasn't that unusual to face things with AC 4 or AC 6 well into high level play. The first time you might encounter an opponent with AC 0, you might already be 5th level, at which point the weirdness with the repeating 20's had been put off to an AC of -2. AC -2 in a monster was fantastically rare in normal play. We're talking things like Xorn, Gold Dragons, and Fiend Lords - stuff you probably aren't going to be fighting at 5th level. Your 10th level thief might face such foes, but now the repeating 20 problem has been pushed off until an AC of -5. THAC0 15 now works perfectly fine except for a few edge cases. Only a few of the harder to hit fiends and Will-o-wisps have an AC that high. You could easily get your PC up to name level without never once throwing a to hit roll against an AC in the repeating 20 range. That goes doubly true if you had a fighter classed character.

Compounding this, I ran - like many tables - that a '1' always missed and a '20' always hit. This slightly changes how I used the table in play, as the number '20' on the table meant in effect - "Either roll a natural 20 or else, roll any number which when modified equals 20 or higher." Likewise a 22 on the table mean, "Either roll a natural 20 or else, roll any number which when modified equals 22 or higher." Which means that if you needed a 20 (or more) to hit, the repeating 20's in the table only matter if your modifier to hit was greater than +0. And since monsters rarely had positive modifiers to hit, this meant that pretty much anything in that part of the table was counting on a natural 20 to hit.

But even this adjustment to the rules doesn't effect the chance of hitting much, because it really only effects attacking AC's beyond the six repeating 20's - which frankly never came up ever. Even to the extent that it was more common for a monster to need a 20 to hit a PC than a PC to hit a monster, fundamentally all the shenanigans with the six repeating 20's ever meant for me was the monster needed a natural 20 to hit. Even when I ran a PC, I played with a different group that also used 'nat 20 always hits' completely without any influence from me, and though my high level PC had a -4 AC, not even a Kobold would have needed a 21 to hit me and so failed with a natural 20 roll. So here my house rule and the RAW produced the same results. And bugbears or ogres, more typical mooks facing my character, could have happily had a -5 adjustment to hit and still hit with a natural 20. So this 'house rule' actually impacted the real chances of success basically never in actual play.

What it does do is simplifies the procedures of play and quite frankly is more coherent than the RAW. For example, this procedure meant that the "Important Note" on page 70 was something I could basically ignore and just use natural math because "it is still possible for opponents to roll natural 20's and thus score hits". I also note that the way the combat rules in this section of the DMG are written, they largely neglect the existence of the "Armor to hit adjustments" on page 34 of the PH, something I wasn't doing.

Finally, again, I didn't actually ever use THAC0 routinely in play because I went straight from 1e to 3e, and because I adopted PC specific tables to speed play (as outlined above). I was familiar with the term. If someone told me that they'd used THAC0 starting in '82, it wouldn't surprise me. Very rarely would have it made any difference compared to consulting the tables.
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top