When did mixing editions become unusual?

Dessert Nomad

Adventurer
And there goes OverlordOcelot with the goal posts on his back zipping right out of the stadium.
In practice, the repeated 20's then 21's rule never came up in play anyway.
It would come up pretty often actually - at 1st level, thief and magic user needed a 20 to hit AC1, so using THAC0 to calculate hits even on normal ACs wasn't technically correct for either of those hit tables, as you'd end up with effectively a +1 bonus.

For the benefit of anyone else reading this tedious argument: I haven't moved any goal posts. Celebrim made the statement that the repeated 20s, then 21 rule never came up in play (quoted above). I pointed out that it did come up in play, and that you'd get incorrect results if you didn't account for the fact that thief and magic user were on the second 20. (quoted above). Pointing out that his statement that I moved the goalposts is false is the only reason why I posted to this again, I don't really like it when people make false claims about me.

By accounting for it, I mean that I said that if someone used THAC0 as their procedure of play, then all they'd need to do was set the THAC0 to 21

If someone is using a procedure during play to account for the effects of a particular rule, then that rule came up in play in the way that I use language, as I said in my previous post. If you don't think that accounting for the effects of a rule means the rule came up in play, that's your language usage and nothing I say will change your mind about it, as I said in my previous post.

It's the 1st level thief attacking something with 0 AC that I consider the weird edge case. To consider that statement incorrect, you have to show that opponents with 0 AC were common foes for low level characters.

As I've pointed out repeatedly, no one but you is talking about anyone attacking anything with an AC of 0 or better. Trying to puff yourself up by correcting' people about how few monsters had ACs better than 0 is ineffectual when you're the only one talking about ACs better than 0 and the person you're trying to 'correct' is explicitly talking about ACs of 1 and worse.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
For the benefit of anyone else reading this tedious argument: I haven't moved any goal posts. Celebrim made the statement that the repeated 20s, then 21 rule never came up in play (quoted above). I pointed out that it did come up in play, and that you'd get incorrect results if you didn't account for the fact that thief and magic user were on the second 20. (quoted above). Pointing out that his statement that I moved the goalposts is false is the only reason why I posted to this again, I don't really like it when people make false claims about me.

Once and for all, the THAC0 of a 1st level thief or wizard is 21 - not 20. I don't know where or why you assumed I couldn't calculate THAC0 since your whole argument depends on incorrectly assigning it. Calculated correctly, you need a 20 to hit a 1, a 19 to hit a 2, an 18 to hit a 3, and so forth. Viola, no +1 bonus against bad AC. But, you might protest, a 1st level thief or wizard only needs a 20 to hit a AC 0 (or -1 for that matter) per the repeating 20's rule, so your calculation is wrong and you have to account for that. And that would be correct, but as a practical matter, 1st level thief's or wizard so rarely attack anything with an AC of 0, that the problem does not come up in play.

I'd go into further details, but I already have. The point is, you never understood what I was saying, so you corrected me over a non-issue. Then you corrected my terminology despite the fact that Gygax used a similar convention in the text and despite the fact that it was clear from context that I was using "higher" and "better" as synonyms. You don't get to tell me what my language means, least of all when you are obviously wrong about it, so what you think or want me to be saying is irrelevant to what I actually said.

Feel free to quote yourself as much as you like but, "It would come up pretty often actually - at 1st level, thief and magic user needed a 20 to hit AC1, so using THAC0 to calculate hits even on normal ACs wasn't technically correct for either of those hit tables, as you'd end up with effectively a +1 bonus." is not and never has been a refutation of "In practice, the repeated 20's then 21's rule never came up in play anyway." This is completely obvious to everyone not you. Inventing some defect in my thinking that was never a part of my thinking in the first place doesn't make you right. No one but you is talking about this theoretical but never actually seen +1 bonus.
 

It would come up pretty often actually - at 1st level, thief and magic user needed a 20 to hit AC1, so using THAC0 to calculate hits even on normal ACs wasn't technically correct for either of those hit tables, as you'd end up with effectively a +1 bonus. My experience is that people tended to just ignore this since it wasn't a big deal, but you hit that part of the table right off the bat at 1st level with two common classes against any armor class.
No, really it wouldn't come up that often - AT FIRST LEVEL (or low levels). If a DM is sending 1st level 1E PC's up against things with AC's that good, when even the fighters will struggle to connect at all with a weapon, then things in that game are significantly askew. The fact that thieves and MU's for several levels needed a 20 to hit AC1 when everyone else only needed 19 just wouldn't matter much though. By the time PC's ARE fighting opponents with that kind of AC on any regular basis the fighters in the party have a better chance to hit because of their more rapidly improving matrix, and they as well as thieves would have hopefully acquired a magic weapon and other magic boosts, and the MU's would just not be as concerned with their sucky weapon combat anymore because they have a larger number of available spells to cast. Their poor attack matrix doesn't matter as much even as they begin to face higher AC opponents.

And FAR too many people don't use the matrices correctly in the first place, or understand what those repeating 20's really accomplish. The effect, even when PC's are advancing in levels, is to ensure that PC's CAN hit opponents with very, very good (very low) AC's when they otherwise wouldn't (and the reason they wouldn't is because in the cases of characters like thieves and MU's is that they generally have poor bonuses to-hit). The default way the 1E matrix is handled is that although the chart says you need a 20 you still apply whatever bonuses you can to that, so those 1st level thieves and MU's can still hit AC -4 without having a single to-hit bonus in their favor, and yet if they do have bonuses they obviously improve that chance. The OPTION for handling the 20's on the matrix in 1E was to say that the second and subsequent 20's on the chart meant that you needed a natural 20 on the die no matter what, and all the bonuses you might have otherwise have added to that don't matter. A 1st level thief or MU could still hit up to AC -4 opponents but their chance would only be 5% - having that natural 20 on the die - no matter what to-hit bonuses they had. The same would then apply to fighters. With the option, a 5th level fighter can hit that AC-4 monster with every point of to-hit bonus he can scrounge - but to hit an AC-5 (or better) monster he needs a natural 20. All the bonuses he has then don't matter and don't add in. He has a 5% chance to hit it by rolling that natural 20, but that's IT. Yet he has the same chance to hit AC -10 (he'd need a +1 to-hit from somewhere but still needs that natural 20 on the die). That is almost, but not quite, the same as, "20's always hit."

The option of needing natural 20's then significantly influences combat for higher level PC's by invalidating all the added bonuses they might have. It's also then an equalizer when both a fighter and an MU might need natural 20's to hit an opponent. A 7th level fighter and a 7th level MU both need a natural 20 on the die to hit AC -7 using the optional rule. Without the option, the fighter can pile on all his bonuses and stand a far better than 5% chance of hitting while the MU's chances aren't much altered.

The opponents are, except in a few corner cases (generally being the DM getting out of hand), all going to be hittable by everyone in a 1E game at any level. The question is HOW hittable, depending on whether you use the matrix default or the option of needing natural 20's. In 1E, THAC0 is only a shorthand to avoid possibly needing to consult the combat matrix. It does not function the same mechanically, or have the same implications that it does in 2E or other editions. Using a THACO system to-hit INSTEAD OF the matrix with the repeated 20's (and not accounting for what those repeating 20's are doing) has undeniable impact on how 1E plays. But it DOESN'T much matter at low levels at all because the PC's have so few bonuses to apply and the opponents they typically fight don't yet have the really good AC's that the repeating 20's affect.

Edit: oh, and mixing editions did largely end with 3E. Though it was likely declining a lot with 2E with its avalanche of splatbooks providing an overabundance of options that would otherwise have been made from scratch or borrowed from other games, 3E nailed the coffin shut. There was a deliberate design focus that said, "Simply making PC's out of all the options is where a big part of the fun will be found." It wasn't that actually playing the characters was supposed to be a secondary consideration, but when SO MUCH emphasis was placed on character builds and options that was the effect. And when actually playing the PC's is a widespread secondary consideration to designing them, you don't need to look to other RPG's to borrow rules and ideas to make your game unique or keep players interested/entertained.
 
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pemerton

Legend
I think the easiest way to use THACO or similar while maintaining the AD&D progression is to overwrite the second 20 and subsequent numbers with a consecutive progression (so 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 21 becomes 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26) and treat a roll of 20 on the d20 as scoring 25.
 

Dessert Nomad

Adventurer
Once and for all, the THAC0 of a 1st level thief or wizard is 21 - not 20.

I literally posted a copy of the table from the 1e DMG in this thread and provided a link to the page hosting it. Anyone who is capable of reading can look at that table and see that if you look up AC 0 on that chart for a 1st level Magic User, the number needed to hit is... 20. 21 doesn't actually appear until AC -5. By treating the THAC0 of the first level mage as 21 instead of the 20 that the chart says, you are taking into account that it's actually the second 20 of the six 20s. I have no idea why you're denying something that's clearly written in black and white, but read the chart.
 

Dessert Nomad

Adventurer
No, really it wouldn't come up that often - AT FIRST LEVEL (or low levels). If a DM is sending 1st level 1E PC's up against things with AC's that good,

ACs 1 or higher are literally the worst ACs that are legal in the game. AC doesn't go higher than 10, and lower ACs are harder to hit. 1st level 1e PCs will virtually always be coming up against things with ACs that are 1 or worse, most of the monster manual is in that range.
 

InVinoVeritas

Adventurer
It sounds like what people are forgetting is that the reason the five 20s on the table were there was because if you needed to roll a 21, then without bonuses, hitting the target was impossible. Not just "you can only hit on a natural 20", but impossible. Those 20s were there to extend the range that hitting on a natural 20 still worked.

In practice, no one played with that rule, because no one wanted a 20 to go to waste. So lots of people thought a 21 was the same thing as a 20.

But then again, since the rules in 1e were more like guidelines anyway, it bothered no one.

ETA: Why are we debating this anyway? This thread is about mixing editions, not how THAC0 works or doesn't.
 
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Once and for all, the THAC0 of a 1st level thief or wizard is 21 - not 20.

No, it isn't.

The THAC0 of Priests, Rogues, Wizards and Warriors is ALL 20.

I'm staring right now at the THAC0 table.

2nd edition AD&D DMG, Page 76, Table 38 "Calculated THAC0s"

THAC0 was the same at 1st level for all characters, it went down to 19 at 2nd level for Warriors, but for Priests and Wizards it stayed 20 through 3rd level and only dropped at 4th level (to 18 for Priests and 19 for Wizards).

Where are you reading some THAC0 table that says it started at 21 for anybody?
 


ACs 1 or higher are literally the worst ACs that are legal in the game. AC doesn't go higher than 10, and lower ACs are harder to hit. 1st level 1e PCs will virtually always be coming up against things with ACs that are 1 or worse, most of the monster manual is in that range.
In 1E? :) This is part of your confusion I think.

In 1E AC counts DOWN from 10 (the worst/unarmored) to 0 (very good) and then -10 (the absolute best). Plate and shield is AC 2. +5 plate and +5 shield is AC -8, that is to say negative 8. At 1st level AC1 is NOT a range of AC often met with. Even into 2nd and 3rd levels opponent AC's are only infrequently at best going to be that good. Looking at the distribution of AC's shows that the great majority of monsters in the 1E MM aren't even near 0. They're mostly in the AC range of 3-7, and in a crude graphical representation the spread looks a bit like this:

AC
9 xxxxxxxxxx
8 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
7 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
6 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
5 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
4 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
3 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
2 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
1 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
0 xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
-1 xxxxxxxx
-2 xxxxxx
-3 xxxxx
-4 xxx
-5 xxx
-6
-7 xx
-8 xx
-9
-10
 

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