Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 1 Failure and Story

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude. Is failure, even losing, possible, or is it not? Is it a game, or is it a storytelling session?

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude. Is failure, even losing, possible, or is it not? Is it a game, or is it a storytelling session?


Notice it’s “storytelling”, not storymaking. Every RPG involves a story, the question is, who creates the story, the GM or the players?

Inevitably, 40-some installments into this column, “Old School” would come up.

. . . role-playing games do not have plots. They have situations at the campaign, adventure, and encounter level which the players are free to interact with however they wish– as long as they accept the consequences!” - Jeffro Johnson (author of the book Appendix N)​

This will be in three (oversized) parts, because understanding of this topic is fundamental to discourse about what some of us (at least) call RPGs, and there’s too much for one or two columns (I tried). I think of a Quora question that asked what a GM can do when a player’s character does something insane or ludicrously inappropriate during a game. The answers varied widely depending on the goals of the answerer. The Old School answer is, “let the character suffer the consequences of the action”; but for those on the New School side, it was a much more complex problem, as the character’s actions would make it hard if not impossible for the GM to tell the story he had devised for the adventure.

Likely everyone reading this has seen and perhaps discussed the term “Old School” in connection with RPGs. When I started to reconnect with RPG fandom a few years ago, I wasn’t sure what “Old School” meant. There seem to be many definitions, but I now see the fundamental divide as not about rules. Rather, it’s about the attitude of the GM, and of the players, toward losing and failure. That’s at the root of Jeffro’s rant, though he puts it in terms of plot and story, which are closely related.

As I said, this is in three parts. The second will talk about rules, GMing, and pacing, and about non-RPGs reflecting the two schools. The third part will talk about differences in actual gameplay.

I’m not going to be “one true way” the way Jeffro is (“thieves must have d4 hit dice” is one of his rants). I write about RPGs as games, not as story-telling aids or playgrounds, but I am describing, not prescribing even as I obviously prefer the Old School. Let’s proceed.

If it’s a game (Old School (OS)), there’s a significant chance you can lose, you can fail. If it’s a story session, with no chance you can lose, it’s something else. This is like a co-operative board game that you cannot lose: why bother to play?

In terms of story, in OS the players write their own story, with the benefit of the GM’s assistance. The GM sets up a situation and lets the players get on with it. (This is sometimes called [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]"[/FONT][/FONT]sandbox[FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]"[/FONT][/FONT] in video games, though video games tend to impose an overall story as a limitation of using computer programming instead of a human GM.) The other extreme is when the GM tells the players a story through the game. (In video games this is called a linear game, where the story always ends up the same way.)

If a GM is Old School and runs the same adventure for several different groups, the results will probably vary wildly. If the GM is at the other extreme, the overall shape of the adventure will be the same each time, with variance only in the details.

Old School adventures are usually highly co-operative, because the characters will DIE if they don’t cooperate. New School doesn’t require cooperation, you’re going to survive anyway.

Not surprisingly, as the hobby has grown, the proportion of wargamers (now a small hobby) has decreased drastically. Many players are not even hobby gamers, that is, they’re not quite “gamers” in the old sense because the only game they play is their RPG(s). Many people want their games to be stories, so the shift from Old School to something else is not surprising.

D&D 5e bears the marks of the newer playing methods, as there’s lots of healing as well as the ridiculous cleric spell revivify for mere fifth level clerics.

There are all kinds of shades of the two extremes, obviously. And all kinds of ways of running RPGs. Next time, I’ll talk about more differences between Old School and newer ways of playing such as Rules and Pacing, and compare with non-RPGs.

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
You do realize that I'm responding to the specific question that I quoted, which was, basically, "If you disagree with what the article thinks is old school vs new school, what do you think the division is?", right? Because yeah, obviously that's not what the article is talking about.

Personally, I don't think anything significant happened in 1996 that changed the way people played the game. The only change was sales; i.e., people were burned out on D&D and White Wolf had their brief era of peak faddishness. But White Wolf wasn't espousing any kind of new playstyle strategy; they were basically just translating the Hickman style of gaming, which had been going on for the better part of 15 years already by 1996, into a new setting and a new system.

Maybe one could say that by about 1996 or so the old school grognardy D&D players were starting to drop out and play something else, but then if you are going to go that route, I think there has to be some consistency. 4e was clearly a wargamey, tactical version of the game, but it's lumped by most in with the new schooly "story-games", which is a passive-aggressive term that does much more harm than good. But it's especially ridiculous to talk about 4e as a story-game when it's the system that specifically eschewed all that to be a tactical wargame with RPG elements just tacked on.

Heh, was catching up on the thread and was like HOBO!!! Good to see a fellow old-CMer around. Few and far between these days.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
If all you got out of that was, "Like, OMG, he actually prefers one playstyle to another, how dare he!" then you really should read it again.

You want to start with me like this? Really?

It was not the only thing I got out of it. It was merely the highly ironic bit that I felt like mentioning. But thanks. I hope you've been doing well.

This time without such a big chip on your shoulder.

Address the logic of the position, not the person of the poster. Making it personal will be a good way for your return to turn sour.
 

If your game characters can exist in a world where arrows and sword slashes don't cause crippling pain, than can't my Fate characters exist in a world where they know suffering a setback now will give them a karmic boost later?
Of course they can, if that works for you. It's not really what they describe in the rule book, but there's no reason you couldn't do it. It would kind of turn the game into Discworld, though, where narrative causality is a natural law, and everyone knows that a million-to-one shot works nine times out of ten. I can't imagine how anyone would be able to take that seriously (assuming you care about taking it seriously).
If the DnD abstractions aren't metagaming, but just a different dimension's laws of physics, than how come my unrealistic game mechanics can't be explained away in a similar fashion?
If my hero can acknowledge that he's tough enough to withstand ten arrows, then it's possible to play that off in a way that's cool and dramatic, as seen so often in popular media (comics, cartoons, novels, movies). If your world runs on a cosmic karma system, where messing up now will literally and causally allow you to succeed later, then it's very difficult to pass that off as anything other than a joke.

I'm not saying you can't do it. Deadpool is very popular, these days. I'm just saying that it's not what most people have in mind for their role-playing games.
 

I

Immortal Sun

Guest
Of course they can, if that works for you. It's not really what they describe in the rule book, but there's no reason you couldn't do it. It would kind of turn the game into Discworld, though, where narrative causality is a natural law, and everyone knows that a million-to-one shot works nine times out of ten. I can't imagine how anyone would be able to take that seriously (assuming you care about taking it seriously).
If my hero can acknowledge that he's tough enough to withstand ten arrows, then it's possible to play that off in a way that's cool and dramatic, as seen so often in popular media (comics, cartoons, novels, movies). If your world runs on a cosmic karma system, where messing up now will literally and causally allow you to succeed later, then it's very difficult to pass that off as anything other than a joke.

I'm not saying you can't do it. Deadpool is very popular, these days. I'm just saying that it's not what most people have in mind for their role-playing games.

Because, to quote Rick and Morty "One out of ten times it's a deadly trap, but...I'm ready to roll those dice!"

Even if its's a known karmic law of the universe, a lot of people aren't ready to roll those dice, it's just not in their nature. The people who are? Well those are usually the characters we're bringing to the table. Even still, failing now could be potentially devastating, depending on the circumstances. Do you let a bus full of kids go over the cliff now because in the future you might stop a nuclear bomb?

Plus, you don't really know when the Law of Karma will convert your failure now into success later, nor what kind of success, or what degree. Even if you ostensibly have control over it, you may need to burn that "success point" on something far less meaningful than the failure that earned it.

And "knowing the rules of the game" was fundamental to the plot of Diablo, the "nephalem" IE: the player characters, gained EXP due to their unique biology and this was something they could come to understand about how the universe worked. It didn't make the universe silly, since people who could gain EXP were a limited quantity, and even if there were more, they would never know until they "rolled the dice".

I actually always wanted to try out the latter in a game, have the PCs actually come to understand some of the "meta" rules like levels and experience because they had a *spark* or whatever and see how that impacted their characters.

Not really trying to argue for or against anything here, just sort of musing on the concept of the characters knowing the "game" rules or not, which I always found conceptually interesting.
 

Hussar

Legend
Seems like then, [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], that a big aspect in what you are discussing about in that mid-'90s shift in discourse was simply the rise of the Internet.

Oh, for sure. That has to be a big part of it. The level of examination that, say, 3e D&D got compared to 2e is orders of magnitude greater. WotC's even mentioned this from time to time when the talk about new mechanics that the Internet has given rise to a dedicated group of gamers who have spent unbelievable amounts of time poring over the minutia of rules.

I mean, think about it for a second. Look at the reaction to poor mechanics that 3e got over the Internet. Now, imagine if 2e was subject to that same degree of scrutiny. They'd tear that game apart. Part of AD&D (and OD&D's) success was due to the fact that no one knew any better.

I know that last sentence is going to get me in trouble, but, I'll stand by it.
 

By that point though, I'd argue that "simulation" as a term is so broad as to lose a lot of meaning. Like I said, a simulation has to actually simulate something or it's not a simulation. That's the point of a simulation. My crumpled up piece of paper is not a simulation of a hurricane, no matter how many times I argued with my science teacher. :D For a system to be simulationist, it actually has to be pretty methodical in its approach to whatever it is it's trying to simulate. And, sure, we can be fine or broad grained in a simulation. That's fine, I get that. But, at some point, I should be able to look at that simulation and have it tell me what's going on within whatever is being simulated.

I agree, there is a lack of generally accepted definitions. I would argue that just about any system simulates a world / setting. The mechanic for combat could be flipping a coin or it could be an insanely detailed set of combat mechanics. Either "simulates" the results of combat. The question is where on the sliding scale / spectrum from "mostly abstract" to "close simulation" it sits. Some systems are more (or even mostly) abstract while others are on the other side with detailed mechanics. And many games treat different aspects of the game world with different levels of abstraction vs. detail. In short, we don't have definitions in common. I suspect we would mostly agree if we did.

Thus, we get games like GURPS (very finely grained simulation), RoleMaster (Ludicrously finely grained to the point where my brain wants to crawl out my left nostril), Battletech (very broadly grained simulation, quick and dirty really) and various others including a host of excellent war games.

Played them all :) And others like them. I'd say the early wave of detailed simulation would be Runequest. It's combat system was designed by SCA combat reenactors and it appealed to me on that basis.


But, my point is, in all the years that I've played simulation games, never once have I heard anyone step up and say, "Hey, let's use D&D (any edition) to simulate our fantasy world". It hasn't been until kinda recently, mostly with the 4e editions wars, that this meme of D&D as sim game has gotten any traction and, honestly, I've only seen it on message boards. It always kinda smacks of "Well, real RPG's are simulationist. Everything else is just posing". Like I say, it's baffling to see anyone with even a modicum of wargaming background try to lump D&D as a sim game with a straight face.

And by your definition I'd agree. I'm just not sure I accept that definition :)

-------------

I would argue that there is something of the beginnings of change in the 90's that you see really bear fruit in the early 2000's though @Desdichado. ((Hobo is that you? the icon looks so familiar)) The rise of games like FUDGE and the whole "indie press" movement really starts in the 90's. The 80's sees a bit of it, but, mostly 80's RPG's were pretty similar to traditional RPG's. I hate to Godwin the thread by bringing up the FORGE but, really, it's not until the FORGE that we see a consistent attempt (I'm not commenting on the success of that attempt, just that the attempt was made) to analyze RPG's in a structured, academic form.

The rise of critical analysis and, heck the tools for critical analysis (hey, look at the discussion I'm having above about whether or not D&D is a simulationist game - that's a direct Forgeism right there) starts in about the mid-90's and continues today. I mean, heck, the discussion about Old School vs New School is a genre defining exercise, at its heart.

Really, when you think about it, probably the biggest difference between old school and new school, is the ability to actually critique the game in a meaningful way. Prior to, say, 1980, no one had any idea how to discuss the game because we hadn't invented the language to discuss games yet. Old school games like AD&D were largely uncritiqued because there was no venue to disseminate any critiques broadly among the fanbase and no shared language to actually make any sort of real critique to begin with.

My heavy RPG playing time ran from the mid 1970s, with D&D, EPT, Traveller, and Runequest being the staples, to the early 1990s when I finished my last stint in graduate school. I never worried too much about academic analysis. That was too much like grad school :) I've continued to play and tried numerous systems at different times. I tend to revert to D&D, Traveller, and Runequest. And a home brewed EPT occasionally. Which is kind of scary now that I think about it :) There is a level of detail in these systems that lets me "simulate" (in that loose definition) my game worlds without taking massive amounts of time I rarely have (except in the summer).

And now, I'm staring at a pile of history papers... grading. Academic analysis is starting to sound good :)

*edit* Spelling... yep I'm in grading mode...
 
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Hussar

Legend
I agree, there is a lack of generally accepted definitions. I would argue that just about any system simulates a world / setting. The mechanic for combat could be flipping a coin or it could be an insanely detailed set of combat mechanics. Either "simulates" the results of combat. The question is where on the sliding scale / spectrum from "mostly abstract" to "close simulation" it sits. Some systems are more (or even mostly) abstract while others are on the other side with detailed mechanics. And many games treat different aspects of the game world with different levels of abstraction vs. detail. In short, we don't have definitions in common. I suspect we would mostly agree if we did.

But, flipping a coin isn't a simulation at all. A simulation actually has to tell you something about what happened. It has to answer basic questions and flipping a coin answers nothing. Just because you get a result does not make something a simulation. Otherwise everything is a simulation and the term is meaningless.

IOW, a simulation has to create a model by which an independent viewer could actually understand how you got from A to B to C. Now, if we use a coin flip and you declare monster X is dead, an independent viewer has absolutely no idea how you got that result. What does a "heads" actually mean in the fiction? Well, because a coin flip is about as gamist as it comes, it means anything you want it to mean, so long as Monster X is dead. So, any and all narratives are equally valid and indisputable.

Imagine applying that logic to GURPS or RuneQuest. Or Star Fleet Battles. "What do you mean my warp drive exploded? Well, I flipped a heads. *table flips*" :D

But, be that as it may, from a world point of view, D&D has shown very little interest mechanically in simulating anything. Completely borked economic systems, complete disregard to anything approaching a functioning ecosystem, absolutely no attention paid to how the existence of magic would impact social and political structures in an iron age setting. So on and so forth.

D&D does one thing really, really well - makes interesting adventures for players to play through. Anything beyond that is generally just pulled out of the DM's imagination.

My heavy RPG playing time ran from the mid 1970s, with D&D, EPT, Traveller, and Runequest being the staples, to the early 1990s when I finished my last stint in graduate school. I never worried too much about academic analysis. That was too much like grad school :) I've continued to play and tried numerous systems at different times. I tend to revert to D&D, Traveller, and Runequest. And a home brewed EPT occasionally. Which is kind of scary now that I think about it :) There is a level of detail in these systems that lets me "simulate" (in that loose definition) my game worlds without taking massive amounts of time I rarely have (except in the summer).

And now, I'm staring at a pile of history papers... grading. Academic analysis is starting to sound good :)

*edit* Spelling... yep I'm in grading mode...

Well, you mention Traveller. Now THERE is a world simulating system. Can't fault that one. But, again, compare Traveler to D&D. AFAIK, D&D has never produced anything like the Traveller world generation system for creating fantasy worlds.

Although, to be fair, THAT'S a supplement I would LOVE to see.
 

Even if its's a known karmic law of the universe, a lot of people aren't ready to roll those dice, it's just not in their nature. The people who are? Well those are usually the characters we're bringing to the table. Even still, failing now could be potentially devastating, depending on the circumstances. Do you let a bus full of kids go over the cliff now because in the future you might stop a nuclear bomb?
It's kind of an absurd premise, but it might make for an interesting one-shot.
And "knowing the rules of the game" was fundamental to the plot of Diablo, the "nephalem" IE: the player characters, gained EXP due to their unique biology and this was something they could come to understand about how the universe worked. It didn't make the universe silly, since people who could gain EXP were a limited quantity, and even if there were more, they would never know until they "rolled the dice".
Was that something that they added in the third game? I don't remember anything like that from the first two.

As far as unusual premises go, that one is substantially less weird. (Which isn't saying much; just about anything would make more sense than a world that actually ran on narrative causality.) I've also considered playing in a game that worked more like Highlander, where some people could absorb energy from other people by decapitating them; it meshes very cleanly with gaining a level whenever you defeat a dungeon boss.
 

I would argue that there is something of the beginnings of change in the 90's that you see really bear fruit in the early 2000's though [MENTION=2205]Desdichado[/MENTION]. ((Hobo is that you? the icon looks so familiar)) The rise of games like FUDGE and the whole "indie press" movement really starts in the 90's. The 80's sees a bit of it, but, mostly 80's RPG's were pretty similar to traditional RPG's. I hate to Godwin the thread by bringing up the FORGE but, really, it's not until the FORGE that we see a consistent attempt (I'm not commenting on the success of that attempt, just that the attempt was made) to analyze RPG's in a structured, academic form.
I'm kinda embarrassed to admit it, but I haven't yet figured out how to change it with the new messageboard format. Oh, well. It's not like I was actively TRYING to be incognito, I just was ready for a change, and haven't been interested in much RPG chatting except occasionally here and there.

The Forge certainly introduced a new school of thought into roleplaying as a hobby overall, but I'm not sure how much Forge-thought has influenced D&D yet, to be honest with you. I could maybe be convinced that I'm wrong, especially since I'm not all that familiar with 5e at all, and know more about 4es setting than its rules, but I'd be very surprised to find out that "storygames" have really gotten into D&D in any significant fashion.
 

You want to start with me like this? Really?
What are you going on about? I posted a link that was highly topical to what I was talking about, you decided to completely miss the point of the link and complain that he seemed arrogant. And only THEN when I pointed out what you'd done, are you suddenly changing your tune completely and saying that addressing the logic and not making an ad hominem is the way to go. After you just did exactly the opposite and didn't like being called out for doing so. If you think that that's something that makes discussions go south, and I certainly do, then don't do it and then act all innocent and pretend like I did it instead.

And you added to that a vague threat.

If my "return" is sour (it's not really a return; I never really left, I just don't read or post much except occasionally on a topic that strikes my fancy once every few months or so) it certainly won't be because of anything *I* did.
 

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