Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 1 Failure and Story

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude. Is failure, even losing, possible, or is it not? Is it a game, or is it a storytelling session?


Notice it’s “storytelling”, not storymaking. Every RPG involves a story, the question is, who creates the story, the GM or the players?

Inevitably, 40-some installments into this column, “Old School” would come up.

. . . role-playing games do not have plots. They have situations at the campaign, adventure, and encounter level which the players are free to interact with however they wish– as long as they accept the consequences!” - Jeffro Johnson (author of the book Appendix N)​

This will be in three (oversized) parts, because understanding of this topic is fundamental to discourse about what some of us (at least) call RPGs, and there’s too much for one or two columns (I tried). I think of a Quora question that asked what a GM can do when a player’s character does something insane or ludicrously inappropriate during a game. The answers varied widely depending on the goals of the answerer. The Old School answer is, “let the character suffer the consequences of the action”; but for those on the New School side, it was a much more complex problem, as the character’s actions would make it hard if not impossible for the GM to tell the story he had devised for the adventure.

Likely everyone reading this has seen and perhaps discussed the term “Old School” in connection with RPGs. When I started to reconnect with RPG fandom a few years ago, I wasn’t sure what “Old School” meant. There seem to be many definitions, but I now see the fundamental divide as not about rules. Rather, it’s about the attitude of the GM, and of the players, toward losing and failure. That’s at the root of Jeffro’s rant, though he puts it in terms of plot and story, which are closely related.

As I said, this is in three parts. The second will talk about rules, GMing, and pacing, and about non-RPGs reflecting the two schools. The third part will talk about differences in actual gameplay.

I’m not going to be “one true way” the way Jeffro is (“thieves must have d4 hit dice” is one of his rants). I write about RPGs as games, not as story-telling aids or playgrounds, but I am describing, not prescribing even as I obviously prefer the Old School. Let’s proceed.

If it’s a game (Old School (OS)), there’s a significant chance you can lose, you can fail. If it’s a story session, with no chance you can lose, it’s something else. This is like a co-operative board game that you cannot lose: why bother to play?

In terms of story, in OS the players write their own story, with the benefit of the GM’s assistance. The GM sets up a situation and lets the players get on with it. (This is sometimes called [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]"[/FONT][/FONT]sandbox[FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]"[/FONT][/FONT] in video games, though video games tend to impose an overall story as a limitation of using computer programming instead of a human GM.) The other extreme is when the GM tells the players a story through the game. (In video games this is called a linear game, where the story always ends up the same way.)

If a GM is Old School and runs the same adventure for several different groups, the results will probably vary wildly. If the GM is at the other extreme, the overall shape of the adventure will be the same each time, with variance only in the details.

Old School adventures are usually highly co-operative, because the characters will DIE if they don’t cooperate. New School doesn’t require cooperation, you’re going to survive anyway.

Not surprisingly, as the hobby has grown, the proportion of wargamers (now a small hobby) has decreased drastically. Many players are not even hobby gamers, that is, they’re not quite “gamers” in the old sense because the only game they play is their RPG(s). Many people want their games to be stories, so the shift from Old School to something else is not surprising.

D&D 5e bears the marks of the newer playing methods, as there’s lots of healing as well as the ridiculous cleric spell revivify for mere fifth level clerics.

There are all kinds of shades of the two extremes, obviously. And all kinds of ways of running RPGs. Next time, I’ll talk about more differences between Old School and newer ways of playing such as Rules and Pacing, and compare with non-RPGs.

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio
Open Question for the Floor: In the opinion of posters in this thread, which set of games respectively exemplify Old School and New School roleplaying games? (Maybe 3-7 games per approach?)

In terms of the OP, it seems like 1e D&D is Old School, and everything else is New School.

As others have already said, I think it's a difficult question because the terms themselves are a bit vague. Each of us has a rough idea of what is meant, but as this thread has shown, the criteria for either Old School or New School is quite varied.

Generally, I look at it as 1e and the early basic iterations of D&D and games that emulate that experience are Old School. There are also other early games from that era that would belong in this category....Traveller, Runequest, and Call of Cthulhu seem the most obvious.

Not that I think these games necessarily fit the descriptions of Old School that have been put forth in this thread. Not all of them anyway.

Then there are modern versions of these games, or modern hacks of them, that emulate their approach and I would include them in the category of Old School. Something like Dungeon Crawl Classics.

New School is even harder to define, really. A shift in importance from player to character? Eh, maybe....but not necessarily. Mechanics that enforce RP? Again, maybe....but such were present even in the earliest of the Old School (alignment, etc).

I think if I had to pick one key component, it may be the players having any narrative power beyond stating what their character does within the established options available to the character based on the game, the setting, and their abilities, level, etc. That seems to be the one thing that sticks most in the craw of folks identifying as Old School Gamers.
 

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I appreciate the shout out, [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION], but I haven't read a word of this thread yet and am super busy right now in gearing up for the spring semester's responsibilities, so it may be a while before I feel ready to jump in with the conversation. Also, [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], along with those mentioned, goes before me in such matters....

With a quick perusal of the lead post, I see an apparent move to discuss play priorities. However, unfortunately, some confused thoughts became entangled with some fair thoughts which weren't well elucidated. That makes for a bit of a mess.

My guess is that trench warfare has ensued in the next 20 some pages of thread and I can probably predict who and what pretty easily. Unfortunately, I'm not terribly interested in spending the time reading and engaging, so I'm going to give all things ENWorld a bit of a miss right now!
 


Generally, I look at it as 1e and the early basic iterations of D&D and games that emulate that experience are Old School.

Sure. But, "that experience" was not the same for everyone, either in an objective sense (like, "we played homebrew" and "we played the published modules") or in terms of subjective memory of what was *important* about the experience.

So, we are left with asking - *exactly* what they are emulating? And, we have to ask how much of the thing to be reproduced was in the rules, and how much in the table game practices, campaign and adventure design around those rules.


New School is even harder to define, really.

It seems a lot of the time, the working definition used is "not Old School".


I think if I had to pick one key component, it may be the players having any narrative power beyond stating what their character does within the established options available to the character based on the game, the setting, and their abilities, level, etc. That seems to be the one thing that sticks most in the craw of folks identifying as Old School Gamers.

Perhaps. But classic World of Darkness games are usually listed as New School, though they don't include such narrative power. So, that narrative power may frequenly be an element, but is not always.
 

Sure. But, "that experience" was not the same for everyone, either in an objective sense (like, "we played homebrew" and "we played the published modules") or in terms of subjective memory of what was *important* about the experience.

So, we are left with asking - *exactly* what they are emulating? And, we have to ask how much of the thing to be reproduced was in the rules, and how much in the table game practices, campaign and adventure design around those rules.

Oh absolutely. That’s why it’s tough to discuss.

It seems a lot of the time, the working definition used is "not Old School".

Right. And that’s so broad as to be useless. Which is, I think, the main reason why the OP’s point is flawed.

Perhaps. But classic World of Darkness games are usually listed as New School, though they don't include such narrative power. So, that narrative power may frequenly be an element, but is not always.

That’s true, but the expectation for Masquerade back then was that the characters would be front and center in the role playing aspect, which is often another element that is looked at as a difference between Old and New School. I think there are many such differences, and they’ll vary from person to person...I was just going with the one that I felt seems to come up the most in these discussions.
 

Not as cut and dried as that as I recall. Although, to be fair, I could be confusing the 2e charts which were extremely detailed. But, something tells me, you already know this.

Of course, this also nicely illuminates the nature of the issue. That Magic User, at 7th level, has accumulated what, 60k xp? Yet, killing him only nets 1025 xp? Really? Where'd the other 59 (ish) thousand xp go?
The average hill giant hasn't accumulated any xp yet is still worth a few thousand when you kill it.

Conservaton of energy or conservation of matter laws don't apply here. :)
 

Conservaton of energy or conservation of matter laws don't apply here. :)

We are okay, though, as the Laws of Thermodynamics are still working. XP is information, and transfer of information is lossy, especially when you are talking about accumulated life experience, and your transmission line is... a sword buried in the target's gut. It stands to figure a lot of the XP leaks away and is lost.
 

Open Question for the Floor: In the opinion of posters in this thread, which set of games respectively exemplify Old School and New School roleplaying games? (Maybe 3-7 games per approach?)
I'll bite:

OS: 1e D&D (pre-Dragonlance); DCCRPG; Hackmaster
NS: 4e D&D; Dungeon World; Savage Worlds
 

I'll bite:

OS: 1e D&D (pre-Dragonlance); DCCRPG; Hackmaster
NS: 4e D&D; Dungeon World; Savage Worlds

I think the release of 1e is a decided change in the "school" of D&D. There were other equally consequential "school changes" but one could very easily make the argument that the biggest change to D&D came when D&D was turned into AD&D, and the experience was (and was expected to be) thoroughly different.

http://kaskoid.blogspot.com/2016/02/how-i-helped-to-pull-rope-that-tolled.html

Quoting just a bit from that interview: "Everything printed after the original three little booklets having to do with OD&D (the game as it was played before the publishing of AD&D) was about suggestions, not rules. One of the founding tenets of D&D as it was played in its formative years of ’74 to ’77 was about rulings, not rules. Another was that it was expected that Dungeon Masters (DM’s) would mine for ideas wherever we could find them: books, fairy tales, movies, old comics, the pulps--all were fair game for ideas upon which to build an adventure or campaign."

"Earlier I mentioned that we ran a lot of tournaments at game conventions. They were huge moneymakers for us, particularly at GenCon where we got all the admission and event fees. Even with modules, we were still finding it nearly impossible to find a large enough pool of DM’s that thought enough like us to feel completely comfortable. It also came to pass that various lawsuits came to be filed at this time that caused a desire to create a new brand. TSR came to the conclusion that it was time to actually codify D&D; thus was Advanced Dungeons & Dragons born, and the death knell of the loosey-goosey, fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants Old School style of play. There were so many things we did not see coming, the most reprehensible of which is the rules-lawyer."

"I have told the story elsewhere: Gary and I spent a week in his office at the end of which the general outline of Basic D&D and AD&D had been laid down. Basic was toned down for younger players and made simpler to understand for easing them into it. AD&D was a tarted-up, codified version of OD&D that would now compel everyone to play the same. Worse, it was now a whole hell of a lot less engaging to the imagination; everything could be found on a chart or table. Old School, or OD&D if you will, is more mentally engaging and more challenging than all the subsequent editions, not less. It is also tons simpler to play."

"The sequencing of the releases of those first three hardbounds was a masterpiece of marketing. We knew everyone would have to have the whole set and released them in an order sure to sell them all well, and it did. And it killed the Old School style of play for a great portion of then-current players; new players only saw AD&D."

"So why do I continue to play OD&D when I mid-wifed AD&D? Because it is all the things 1st Edition AD&D (1E) is not. It is not slaved to charts and tables, although it has some. It is not arguable; it works that way on my world because I say so. It is about gathering information, not relying on Skills and Abilities to do the work for you. It is about playing well, having fun and living to fight another day."

"I see a dearth of those skills and abilities in newer versions. I think that in some ways Old School required a higher caliber player as well as requiring trust at the table; I see the art of running a great table being less respected (and practiced). I actually had a young man in a game at GaryCon tell me I was doing it wrong one time and that I was not being fair; the table stared in open-mouthed amazement all the while. I told him that I was sorry he wasn’t having any fun and that he was free to leave the game; he did not ask for a refund, although I am sure I could have gotten him one."

"Old School-style was more difficult and much more nuanced than what later editions engendered. It required more roleplaying, it required asking lots of questions; thus was “the caller” born. The term “the caller” surely had many other synonyms, but it was a vital role in early role-playing. When the entire party started to ask questions for one reason or another, the DM could be overcome by the cacophony. The caller had to be able to sort through his compatriot’s babble and then turn around to the DM with a coherent set of questions, as well as making sure that all his party was heard; sometimes the player that hardly ever opened his mouth had a spectacular insight. Contrary to what you might be thinking, the caller was not always the “dynamic leader-type” that every group seemed to produce that made decisions or swayed the decisions through force of will. But that role was one hell of a character builder. Ofttimes, the caller was the one that led the party in exploring."
 
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I think the release of 1e is a decided change in the "school" of D&D. There were other equally consequential "school changes" but one could very easily make the argument that the biggest change to D&D came when D&D was turned into AD&D, and the experience was (and was expected to be) thoroughly different.

One could make that argument. One could also make the argument that he says they were pretty arrogant at the start of the piece, and by the end shows that he didn't really lose the arrogance. *MY* version takes more thought and roleplaying. *Yours* takes less.

Yeah. Sure. :/
 

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