Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

Hussar said:

I was reading the Tor.com site and came across the following quote as it relates to the remake of the Dune movie that is apparently in the works:



From here

I think that quote, right there, says it all.

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I hear what people are saying, but I think it isn't always obvious how media and stories impact our world. And I think as well intentioned as this stuff is, you really do run the risk of making wholesomeness prime, and quality second. We can juggle many things at once. But if wholesomeness becomes the benchmark for quality....I think it leads to less interesting stories. Dune is a good case in point. I am not sure how you could change it to take out the elements deemed problematic and have it remain intact. Part of what makes Dune work is the very tropes called into question.

Bedrockgames said:

I hear what people are saying, but I think it isn't always obvious how media and stories impact our world. And I think as well intentioned as this stuff is, you really do run the risk of making wholesomeness prime, and quality second. We can juggle many things at once. But if wholesomeness becomes the benchmark for quality....I think it leads to less interesting stories. Dune is a good case in point. I am not sure how you could change it to take out the elements deemed problematic and have it remain intact. Part of what makes Dune work is the very tropes called into question.

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You're missing the point of the quote.

Don't take things out of Dune. Why would you? But, also, don't enshrine a work so that it cannot be critiqued. We're seeing that in this thread with comments about Tolkien and orcs. No one is saying anything about banning Tolkien or erasing history.

However, the next time a LotR movie gets made, maybe the orcs could all be played by white actors and everyone else by minority actors? After all, if race is totally unimportant, then a Chinese Frodo shouldn't bother anyone at all.

But, unfortunately, it will. See the reaction to the theater production of Harry Potter which cast Hermione as black.

I'm guessing the regular Snagga goblin orcs in LOTR were actually played by white actors?

Personally I don't think race is unimportant re casting and I don't want a Chinese Frodo (unless the Chinese make their own LOTR of course). I always thought of Tolkien's orcs as ethnically British since that is how they talk, whatever his description, and I found the Maori orcs a bit disconcerting. I don't begrudge actors from taking offered roles. Lots of British actors play villains in Bollywood films.

Hussar said:

Not really sure I'll buy that one.

See Sax Rohmer and Fu Manchu for a pretty clear example.

/editted to change to Sax Rohmer, which has led to a rather odd quoting by [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION]. Totally my fault.

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I couldn't actually remember any racism by ACD but I was willing to take your word for it!

But, that's the issue isn't it [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION]? What would be the problem with having Ronnie Chang play Frodo? I mean, Elijah Wood isn't English but there was no problem with having him play Frodo. Does Tolkien even really physically describe hobbits? Other than big hairy feet and usually curly brown hair, I'm actually struggling to remember much physical description.

So, what's the problem here? Hassan Minaj as Sam? ((Ok, I've been watching a lot of Netflix lately. ))

Hussar said:

But, that's the issue isn't it [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION]? What would be the problem with having Ronnie Chang play Frodo? I mean, Elijah Wood isn't English but there was no problem with having him play Frodo. Does Tolkien even really physically describe hobbits? Other than big hairy feet and usually curly brown hair, I'm actually struggling to remember much physical description.

So, what's the problem here? Hassan Minaj as Sam? ((Ok, I've been watching a lot of Netflix lately. ))

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I'd like my hobbits to look ethnically English. Note that this is a preference, I am not postulating a moral rule. Certainly if Japan made a live action LOTR I would expect Japanese hobbits, I would not expect them to import British or Anglo actors.

(Likewise the BBC traditionally cast British actors to play Americans and every other ethnicity)

I guess likewise if some one is casting Le Guin's Earthsea I would prefer darker toned actors to fit the book descriptions, though I suppose they could just use make-up. The tendency is to use fair skinned actors. Same with casting Egyptians, they should be darker than Scots.

Hobbits are - both from JRRT's point of view, and from any reading of the work - English, and English in a rather distinctive way. A casting that took a different approach from what JRRT envisaged would (I think) have to be doing something deliberate/self-conscious, whatever that might be. (Eg would a presentation of a Black British hobbit be progressive, or reactionary? I'm not sure I can pursue that question on these boards for the usual reason, but to me it seems that the answer isn't self-evident.)

An even stronger example of the point about casting would be (to move out of fantasy) a casting of The Human Factor or The Quiet American.

On the other hand, I think it should be totally possible to play with casting in a Conan movie and yet fully capture the spirit of REH. It is important thematically that Conan be a barbarian, but his being white is - in my view at least - thematically extraneous (though obviously of great personal importance to REH), provided that the rest of the casting and broader framing properly incorporated Conan into the "civilisation" that was being presented.

To give another non-fantasy illustration of this sort of thing, nothing in Rome and Juliet or The Princess Bride particularly demands white/European casting.

Hussar said:

But, that's the issue isn't it [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION]? What would be the problem with having Ronnie Chang play Frodo? I mean, Elijah Wood isn't English but there was no problem with having him play Frodo. Does Tolkien even really physically describe hobbits? Other than big hairy feet and usually curly brown hair, I'm actually struggling to remember much physical description.

So, what's the problem here? Hassan Minaj as Sam? ((Ok, I've been watching a lot of Netflix lately. ))

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This isn't the stuff I am talking about. I think casting choices can be creative or interesting calls, and I don't think casting outside the expected ethnicity or race (or gender) is a problem at all. Personally I would like to see more Asian American actors cast in major roles because I do think they are a group that don't get taken as seriously as others for leads (it does seem to be changing though in recent years).

What I am saying is this mindset is making it so you won't see the next Dune. Even as the author of that article explains, as things go, Dune is pretty good in terms of complexity and withstanding critique (though I have to say I've seen some pretty aggressive takedowns of Dune from that point of view). But it still has rough edges. And there are still a lot of people who would take issues with elements of it around some of the kinds of concepts we are talking about (colonialism, cultural appropriation, etc). I think we are taking too fine tooth a comb to this stuff is my point. Without the rough edges is it still Dune, or does it become something more pablum? And I am not saying you can't critique things. By all means do so. But not everyone is going to agree with your conclusions and increasingly my concern is the role that social media is playing in making these kinds of criticisms become standards that can actually be enforced. It is one thing for authors to decide to be more respectful. I try to be respectful in my own writing. But there is a zone where things are more experimental and writers need to take more risks. In that zone, that intention matters a great deal. What I am often seeing in writer and design communities is people becoming afraid to handle anything outside their own culture or experience. I don't think that is engendering greater empathy, it is reducing it. Or they are afraid to engage in a fantasy analogue without it being 100% historical realism so it has a badge of authenticity to it (which often misses the point of genre fiction which tends to be more historical romance).

So I am listening to what you say and reading your arguments very seriously (I don't dispute important issues are being raised at all and it is good to have a conversation). But i've looked at a lot of the arguments you and others are making and just don't think it leads to where you seem to think it will, or that it is good for art in general. I feel like people on this thread think if they just pointed out X or Y, I'd be on board. But this argument is one I've seen play out over the past several years and have had a lot of time to consider. I think we can still care about some of the same core issues you and others have raised, but think the road there is very different. I just believe very genuinely that this approach isn't going to make things better in the long term.

Heading out the door presently, so this is a bit of a hasty response. Happy to clarify any points Hussar if you want.

S'mon said:

I'd like my hobbits to look ethnically English. Note that this is a preference, I am not postulating a moral rule. Certainly if Japan made a live action LOTR I would expect Japanese hobbits, I would not expect them to import British or Anglo actors.

(Likewise the BBC traditionally cast British actors to play Americans and every other ethnicity)

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I can understand expecting them to be culturally English. i think given that it is a fantasy world, you could still have black or asian hobbits and it they could still be discernibly English. To me it is more about culture than ethnicity or race. Not saying every production would have to have this. I just don't see the problem with it personally.