Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

dragoner · Mar 9, 2019

Dannyalcatraz said:
If I’m honest, though, he probably would have preferred to play a Cleric, what with his commitment to nonviolence.

Malcolm X, though? Paladins, all day, every day. Perhaps along the lines of...

Thinking of MLK and Malcolm X as a Cleric and Paladin, are wonderful ideas that I never thought that would have come out of this thread. Thank you.

Lychee of the Exch. · Mar 9, 2019

"Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda ?"

No.

A good question would be "What is colonialist propaganda ?". The answer is : What is found in a majority of 19th century (the great era of colonization) newspapers re: Africa and the Middle East and Far East, and in the novels of that time period pertaining to those subjects and geographical areas.

The inhabitants of Africa specifically, in that time period, are depicted as "savages", which meant halfway beetween humans and apes. Orcs aren't even human, and have never been human. They're humanoid shaped monsters - like trolls. Orcs stand for the the inhuman. As such, they aren't "savages", in the 19th century sense, who were half-humans.

The monsters of our fairy tales and sagas - of which the Orcs are but one example - have never been savages, which is a modern (post-Enlightment) concept. So they have nothing to do with colonialism.

But if you wanted, on a twisted whim, write a fantasy world were Orcs are stand-ins for colonized people, you could. Since there are exceedingly few such fantasy worlds out there (if any), I posit that Orcs are viewed as a racist or colonialist trope only by racism-obsessed or deluded people, or people with a pseudo-revolutionary agenda (the dimwitted lefties).

I posit that you need to refamiliarize yourself with ENWorld’s stance on non-inclusive behavior. Hint: “dimwitted lefties” is not acceptable. Disagreement without being disagreeable IS. Do not post in this thread again.

Sadras · Mar 9, 2019

dragoner said:
It is what it is, Orcs sort of get the pass by tradition and fantasy tropes, I'm not arguing that they should necessarily be removed, except to be sensitive to the fact of what their representation is, is unfortunately racist.

So roleplaying thrill-seeking-murderhobo-looters is ok, but let's be sensitive to the fact that we're being racist to orcs. I remember the good ol' days where we could just kill things without having to worry about latent racism.

EDIT: When things get heated on Enworld, we often hear the phrase about posters arguing over their imaginary elf game, but hey in this thread its all about colonialism and racism. :erm:

dragoner · Mar 9, 2019

Sadras said:
So roleplaying thrill-seeking-murderhobo-looters is ok, but let's be sensitive to the fact that we're being racist to orcs. I remember the good ol' days where we could just kill things without having to worry about latent racism.

EDIT: When things get heated on Enworld, we often hear the phrase about posters arguing over their imaginary elf game, but hey in this thread its all about colonialism and racism.

Because otherwise, the game police will kick in your door and confiscate your game books, right?

Bedrockgames · Mar 9, 2019

Dannyalcatraz said:
No, dammit! JACKIE freaking CHAN as Frodo!

I'd certainly be interested in Jackie Chan's interpretation of the character. Maybe they recruit Sammo Hung as Samwise. I'd feel a bit bad though given Jackie Chan's statements about how Hollywood handled him.

I believe Eastenders had some POC in the cast, soooo...

I mean, a few swarthy hobbits- even in lead roles- won’t turn LotR into Straight Outta Compton.

.

As far as I am concerned they can do whatever they want casting wise with any future lord of the rings. Heck if they want to set it in a city in the US, and go modern day that might be interesting. I am all for experimentation in that respect.

Bedrockgames · Mar 9, 2019

dragoner said:
It's not hazy, if one replaced the Orc trope with any real world ethnic or religious group as a quick 2 second litmus test, it would be seen as horrible racism in an unqualified manner. It is what it is, Orcs sort of get the pass by tradition and fantasy tropes, I'm not arguing that they should necessarily be removed, except to be sensitive to the fact of what their representation is, is unfortunately racist. That an Orc's traits and capacity for evil is inherent to their race? I really don't see any assumption of how that could be construed in any other way than racism.

Again, like I said before, I don't think it is at all that clear, particularly when you start talking post-Tolkien orcs. I just don't think this is a settled debate by any stretch. I view the Tolkien Orcs as on the cusp. I mean it isn't even 100% clear to me what group they represent exactly. Someone mentioned East Asians, but that doesn't seem particularly apropos of the depiction. I could see something vaguely Turkish perhaps, to invoke the Ottoman empire (but again there it is a question of whether he was invoking it purely as short hand or to cast Turks in a certain light). But to me it still seems pretty hazy, particularly when we account for what we know of Tolkien himself.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." As the old saying goes. I think you are mistaken, and I think it's a bad hill to make a stand on. It's better to accept things as they are, and move on.

Okay, but I think you are mistaken as well. We have a real disagreement over what this stuff means and what people ought to do about it. I don't view this as dying on a hill. I just view it is voicing my opinion and my reaction to a trope.

Dannyalcatraz · Mar 9, 2019

Bedrockgames said:
I'd certainly be interested in Jackie Chan's interpretation of the character. Maybe they recruit Sammo Hung as Samwise. I'd feel a bit bad though given Jackie Chan's statements about how Hollywood handled him.

Sammo as Samwise opposite Chan as Frodo would be perfect!

A full-on martial arts movie version of LotR would probably be difficult to cast, but probably kick ass. (Quasi-pun intended.)

I mean, just imagine how awesome a wushu battle between Gandalf and Saruman would be!

Hmmm...now I’m thinking I need to buy a copy of the Spirit of 77 rpg and design a blaxploitation/chop socky/buddy cop campaign based on a reskinning of LotR.

Bedrockgames · Mar 9, 2019

Dannyalcatraz said:
Sammo as Samwise opposite Chan as Frodo would be perfect!

A full-on martial arts movie version of LotR would probably be difficult to cast, but probably kick ass. (Quasi-pun intended.)

I mean, just imagine how awesome a wushu battle between Gandalf and Saruman would be!

Hmmm...now I’m thinking I need to buy a copy of the Spirit of 77 rpg and design a blaxploitation/chop socky/buddy cop campaign based on a reskinning of LotR.

They could do it in the style of Buddha's Palm

Doug McCrae · Mar 9, 2019

Bedrockgames said:
I mean it isn't even 100% clear to me what group they represent exactly.

It doesn't matter whether "slant-eyed" refers to East Asians, or Siberians, or Turks, or Arabs, or all of them. The point is that a physical characteristic possessed by a distinct group of people in the real world, a group who would be perceived as racially different because of that characteristic and others, is being associated with evil. That's what racism is. The connection of negative mental and moral traits with external physical features shared by a large subset of humanity.

Bedrockgames · Mar 9, 2019

Doug McCrae said:
It doesn't matter whether "slant-eyed" refers to East Asians, or Siberians, or Turks, or Arabs, or all of them. The point is that a physical characteristic possessed by a distinct group of people in the real world, a group who would be perceived as racially different because of that characteristic and others, is being associated with evil. That's what racism is. The connection of negative mental and moral traits with external physical features shared by a large subset of humanity.

But we are talking about a fictional race, that seems to hold a lot of different cultural influence. I am just saying I don't think this is so cut and dry as people are making it. If it isn't even clear if that is a reference to Siberians or Turks (or perhaps not even to people at all) I don't see that it is an obvious racist trope. It is one thing to buy into early 20th century racialist theories (which are awful) but another for an author to borrow cultural and physical features from different groups in order to create a new race of creatures. Like I said before, I do think it is on the cusp. But on the cusp, not blatant. And I can definitely see room for disagreement on the issue. And since the Lord of the Rings, orcs have developed further so now they are just green skinned monsters with no real strong associations to any one group of people (any culture that has a history of skillfully waging war, seems fair game for using as inspiration for orcs).