Unsatisfied with the D&D 5e skill system

twofalls · Mar 27, 2019

I will be starting a new game in a few months, and find that I am very dissatisfied with the D&D 5e skill system, and would like something more comprehensive, but not terribly more complex. I could just import the system from 3.0 into 5e, however I can well imagine that this is a topic that has been addressed here before, and thought that someone might be able to point me in the direction of some good ideas or information, at least I hope as much.

iserith · Mar 27, 2019

Which skill proficiencies do you find D&D 5e is lacking? Use Rope?

billd91 · Mar 27, 2019

If you do port over part or all of 3e's skills, my advice would be to not break perception and stealth back up into, respectively, Listen/Spot and Hide/Move Silently. There's a reason other systems used the blanket Stealth term when AD&D was mired in Hide in Shadows and Move Silently - it's easier to work with and doesn't effectively require a PC to succeed at both checks to by stealthy.

twofalls · Mar 27, 2019

That is good advice. Thanks.

Bacon Bits · Mar 27, 2019

I think you need to start by describing the goals you're trying to achieve by changing the system. You say you're very dissatisfied, but you don't really describe what's dissatisfying. You also say you want something more comprehensive, but I'm not sure what you think is lacking. Then you mention 3.0 skill system but, to be honest, I find that system equally comprehensive and needlessly more complex (and 3.5 is worse with all the situational modifiers). You think there should be more skills? You don't like the proficiency system? You think a 10th level character should expect to automatically succeed on skill rolls?

My problem with skill systems in general is that there are only two broad types of systems. The first one has fairly generic all-encompassing skills that you get to pick a few of. That's not terribly realistic because characters can do things that don't seem related and some skills just become must-haves. However, the alternative systems that say, "Our Zombo.com system has unlimited skills! Anything can be a skill!" can be much worse. The problem with those systems is that you still only get a limited selection of skills, and because the number of skills is so diverse you stand a much better chance of not being able to even roll a die because the DM thinks that, for example, modifying the starship navicomputer requires Electronics instead of Computers, Astrogation, or Repair. It's a pigeonholing problem. Skills stop being about things you're good at and instead define everything you can't even try to do.

So, that's kind of what I mean. What kind of outcomes in game play do you want for a skill system? What do you intend for it to accomplish in the game itself? Define your problems, describe your desired outcomes. Be specific. "I want more skills," isn't an outcome but, "I want the players to have to make tougher choices," is. "I want bigger bonuses," isn't an outcome, but, "I want skills to represent a broader range of expertise than 'skilled' and 'not skilled'," is.

akr71 · Mar 27, 2019

Having gone from 2e straight to 5e (with a couple decade hiatus), I can't offer insight on how to import 3e skills effectively.

Are there skills missing that you wish were there? If so, I would not hesitate to homebrew them in, selecting an appropriate ability score for it to fall under.

Is it a skill rank system that you find lacking? As in, once you are proficient in a skill, there is no way to improve that skill other than increasing the base ability score or get enough levels to increase your Proficiency Bonus? If so, I have introduced an Expertise Feat into my game - similar to the Rogue. The Feat can be taken more than once, but not applied to the same skill more than once.

5ekyu · Mar 27, 2019

twofalls said:
I will be starting a new game in a few months, and find that I am very dissatisfied with the D&D 5e skill system, and would like something more comprehensive, but not terribly more complex. I could just import the system from 3.0 into 5e, however I can well imagine that this is a topic that has been addressed here before, and thought that someone might be able to point me in the direction of some good ideas or information, at least I hope as much.

before i could even begin, i would need to know more about what you want and what you do not like? I mean you could be unhappy because there are too many skills or way too few. you could be unhappy with proficiency vs tools or fixed ability score to skills or not advancing skill ranks or number of skills as you level, or that they advance too much and make tasks too easy when combined with class features and options.

So i would ask the following:

Can you name two things that the 5e skills system *currently does* that you like and want to keep?
Can you name two things that the 5e skills system *currently does* that you dont like and want to scrap?
Can you name two things that the 5e skills system *currently does not do* that you like and want to add to it?
Can you name two things that the 5e skills *currently does not do* that you don't like and want to make sure doesn't get added by your new changes?

those four questions create a set of boundaries in which we can evaluate a set of changes and basically get an idea as to how well they hit your mark.

it will also help to get an idea as to what you see as "more" but "not too" complex once we have advantages of each.

"If you don't know where you want to go, you will likely wind up somewhere else."

Edit to add -

have you looked at XGtE and its more advanced tools proficiencies? Is that more what you want or the wrong way or neither?

Have you looked at the DMG options for changing the skills and traits systems? I find those options and even their variants to have a lot of potential. I personally use some of their auto-success rules from DMG and am strongly considering the implementation of some of the "lighter" proficiency schemes based on backgrounds or ability scores.

Do you use any support tools you want to keep - such as DDB etc - in your game where changes that can still "fit within that" would be more appealing than ones which drive you away from that tool? For example, IRL, in our last game, we used the DMG proficiency dice variant and it did what we liked a bit better than the proficiency value does, but when we went to full-on DDB for the current campaign it was better overall to drop the proficiency die system since DDB does not currently support that option.

dave2008 · Mar 27, 2019

Not sure what your looking for, but we have had a lot of success using the alternate rules in the DMG that decouple skills from a specific ability score. We have also expanded skills to include backgrounds. So if you have the "Noble" background you can make an ability check w/ proficiency for anything that relates to being a noble, even if it goes beyond the skills provided by the background.

EDIT: the emphasis with this approach is the player has to describe what their doing and how their skill or background helps them. The DM then decides if they get proficiency and what ability score to check.

twofalls · Mar 27, 2019

First thank you for these comprehensive responses, they are so far more than I expected.

I will respond first to the questions that 5ekyu posed as they are more in depth than I had even really thought of myself, and I think they cover what everyone else has asked. My general dislike for the 5e system stems from my feeling that it is too limited in scope, that the skills are so broad that I'm often being left with uncertainty about how to apply them. Also, I have found that more comprehensive systems give players ideas on how to use skills themselves they may not have thought of.

Can you name two things that the 5e skills system *currently does* that you like and want to keep?
I do like that the current system is simple, and it meshes well with the manner in which D&D is played in that it uses a D20 and is tied to both the proficency bonus and the attribute bonus. I like this and would like to keep it.
Can you name two things that the 5e skills system *currently does* that you dont like and want to scrap?
As I said above, I'd like a system that offers more skills. I really love the Shadowrun system and how skills work there, which is entirely inappropriate for D&D I understand, however the depth and scope of the skills offered lends itself to suggesting to players how to use them, and helps to define characters.
Can you name two things that the 5e skills system *currently does not do* that you like and want to add to it?
I'm certain that the current system can accommodate all that I would like a more robust system to handle, however as stated a couple of times now, I do not like how general it is.
Can you name two things that the 5e skills *currently does not do* that you don't like and want to make sure doesn't get added by your new changes?
My group is filled with new players. Though they have been gaming together now for nearly two years, they have only gamed together with very little variation in the player base. I'd like to expose them to a broader skills system that would lead them to think of using skills in new ways. I think the 5e system would allow them to do most anything they can think of currently, but I wish for them to see new role-playing opportunities that a more robust skill system would suggest to them.

Thank you for your time.

twofalls · Mar 27, 2019

dave2008 said:
Not sure what your looking for, but we have had a lot of success using the alternate rules in the DMG that decouple skills from a specific ability score. We have also expanded skills to include backgrounds. So if you have the "Noble" background you can make an ability check w/ proficiency for anything that relates to being a noble, even if it goes beyond the skills provided by the background.

EDIT: the emphasis with this approach is the player has to describe what their doing and how their skill or background helps them. The DM then decides if they get proficiency and what ability score to check.

This is an interesting idea.