How do YOU handle a Fastball Special, and other team manuevers?

Guest 6801328 · Apr 10, 2019

Hawk Diesel said:
[MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION] - What you are referencing is a variant rule.

In Game of Thrones (Fantasy Genre) we see the giant Wun Wun
-Smash a dude against a brick wall
-Knock out a horse and send it flying 10ft back with a single punch
-Casually grab and toss a phalanx soldier 20ft+ into the air.

Mechanically, Wun Wun could be described as a Goliath Barbarian under the effects of an Enlarge spell. If we assume an 18 Strength (easily achievable by level 4 with Standard Array), this would make the player capable of carrying of 1,080. Push, Drag, and Lift is 2,160. If we assume that the Goliath also took a potion of Hill Giant Strength (Uncommon potion, increases strength to 21), then carrying capacity is 1,260 lbs and Push, Drag, Lift is 2,520.

For perspective, median height of a Goliath is 7'1". According to Volo's, this would put the Goliath in a median weight of 277 lbs. However, real world comparisons of strongmen (what seem to be the closest real world analogs to barbarians) of similar height to a goliath mean a more realistic weight would be in the range of 350 - 400 lbs. Sean O'Hagan is 6'11" weighing 440 lbs, Hafthor Bjornsson is 6'9" and weighs between 397 - 441). A Goliath under the effects of an enlarge spell would 14'2" tall and weigh between 2,800 - 3,200 lbs.

An Olympic Shot Putter can throw a 16 lbs metal sphere about 60'. The hammer throw (16 lbs sphere on a chain) is around 260'. If a common weight for these athletes is around 250 lbs, this is an object weight about 6% of their body weight. For an enlaged Goliath Barbarian, 6% of their body weight ranges from 168 lbs - 192 lbs. Assuming equivalent strength ratios, an Enlarged Goliath Barbarian can throw an average sized human nearly as far as Olympic athletes can throw a shot put or a hammer. Of course, a shot put and hammer are perfect instruments for throwing and thus ideal for that purpose. However, even if we half those distances, an Enlarged Goliath Barbarian could throw a full grown man 30ft, or 130' if there is a harness that the player could grab onto.

So what I'm saying is that while not just anyone could throw a person in D&D, it is not outside the realm of possibility either, nor does it require a Genre change to imagine.

Oh, I fully agree that by the time strength starts reaching 21+ and mass becomes a half-ton or more (with magic, I'll point out) you could do some things like this. And although I computed the velocity for a perfect 30' throw I probably wouldn't require more than an Acrobatics check to land safely. Rule of Cool and all.

Also, I will point out that the hammer throw uses a 3 foot chain. Angular momentum and all.

doctorbadwolf · Apr 10, 2019

Elfcrusher said:
Not bad faith, but I wanted to express my opinion, which is that I find this a little too gonzo for my tastes, but for those who feel otherwise my recommendation would be to keep it simple. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "ridiculous" ("gonzo" is a better choice) but overall I tried to express my opinions respectfully.

I should know by now that you never handle it well when somebody comes into one of your threads and disagrees with the premise.

EDIT:
Oh, I see, you're referring to the "I guess my work here is complete." No, I was just trying to respond with humor...instead of rising to the bait...of you trying to mock me for my preferences/perceptions about magic vs. martial might.

I can't find the place where I said that the human toss is equivalently fantastic to a fly spell. You made up that particular red herring, and then denigrated it. (Thanks for that.)

Nah. Raising counter arguments isn’t responding badly to disagreement. What you’ve been doing is threadcrapping with dismissive word choice and telling people to go play another game if they don’t agree with your narrow view of 5e dnd.

As for the last part, you compared throwing a guy to a what spellcasters do. I’m not gonna entertain dishonest quibbling.

But you weren’t at all respectful in any post in this thread, so I don’t believe for a moment that you intended to be.

Hawk Diesel · Apr 10, 2019

[MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION] - That was my main point though. If a player is not just wanting to try something, but is using resources and class/racial abilities to attempt these feats, then why not allow them to try and do so with some reward for creative use of their resources. In a world full of magic and elements that break traditional concepts of "normal" and "physics," I just have difficulty understanding the line people use to determine that one element is completely fine (magic users bending the laws of reality to their whim), but fantasy warriors of fictional strength couldn't achieve feats outside what one might expect in the real world.

And yes, I'm aware of the meter long chain. I was a thrower in college. If you haven't tried it, there is NOTHING more therapeutic than spinning to whip a metal ball hurtling through the air fast enough to destroy anything in it's path. ^_^
[MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6704184]doctorbadwolf[/MENTION] - Let's try and cool off a bit. We are all talking about a dice game that we imagine in our heads. We all have different concepts about what D&D is or isn't. While I disagree where some people place the line for what does or doesn't break immersion, genre, or levels of gonzo, I fully respect people's ability to place the line where they are most comfortable. I think its interesting to discuss with people the reasons for their considerations, both as a means to challenge and expand my own stances, as well as to reinforce them through my arguments. Let's not let differences of opinion or hostility break down a really interesting conversation about how something like this could be incorporated into D&D, how it might be executed, under what circumstances, and how people might rule on it in the moment. Players are always testing us as DMs with creative ideas or solutions that we could never have expected, forcing us to make off-the-cuff rulings based on gut instinct. So let's use this as an opportunity to continue to train our instincts for those impromptu, unexpected moments.

Guest 6801328 · Apr 10, 2019

Hawk Diesel said:
And yes, I'm aware of the meter long chain. I was a thrower in college. If you haven't tried it, there is NOTHING more therapeutic than spinning to whip a metal ball hurtling through the air fast enough to destroy anything in it's path. ^_^

I haven't done it, but I think I know what you mean: I'm a big fan of beating on 2,000 degree steel with a hammer.

Hawk Diesel said:
In a world full of magic and elements that break traditional concepts of "normal" and "physics," I just have difficulty understanding the line people use to determine that one element is completely fine (magic users bending the laws of reality to their whim), but fantasy warriors of fictional strength couldn't achieve feats outside what one might expect in the real world.

I think this is exactly a case of what you mentioned about having different lines. It's not that the warriors have be completely realistic...I like a bit of superheroism...it's a question of how much is enough, and my limit is probably a lot lower than others'.

And, for what it's worth, I also think there's way too much magic...at least on the part of PCs...in D&D. I hate the Fly spell.

Immortal Sun · Apr 10, 2019

SkidAce said:
For an understanding of your perspective, how do you feel about monks doing "wuxia" style jumps and movements over say, rooftops?

Given that Monks in 5E are OA monks and not say, Gregorian monks, that's sort of an unfortunate complication of their inclusion in what is otherwise psuedo-medieval european fantasy.

So, I'm not happy about it, but the best options here are either to "suck it up" and let people play monks, or don't let people play monks.

SkidAce said:
As a funny tangent, I get this.

We came from the other direction, DnD > MtG. You should see our "themed" decks and roleplaying(slight) the MtG games.

Not as effective as they could be sometimes, but we enjoy the game.

I like to do that as well. I can crunch the numbers, but at the end of the day, that kind of winning is a lot less fun than winning with a creative theme or unique deck.

Jeff Carlsen · Apr 10, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
What about non comic book distances, like discussed in the thread? 15-30 feet, for instance.

Again, I'd need to know what they're trying to accomplish and consider the tone of my game. It's not something that comes up often, so it's entirely situational.

In a game with a more grounded tone, 15-30 feet is an essentially impossible distance to throw a person short of supernatural strength. I'm imagining a fighter wanting to throw a character over a pit or something. I'd simply rule that they don't believe they can make the throw.

But in a less grounded game, where high strength is imagined to be essentially super-human, I would probably just give it a hard DC and keep the game moving.

The last thing I'd want to to do is create a system for it.

doctorbadwolf · Apr 10, 2019

Jeff Carlsen said:
Again, I'd need to know what they're trying to accomplish and consider the tone of my game. It's not something that comes up often, so it's entirely situational.

In a game with a more grounded tone, 15-30 feet is an essentially impossible distance to throw a person short of supernatural strength. I'm imagining a fighter wanting to throw a character over a pit or something. I'd simply rule that they don't believe they can make the throw.

But in a less grounded game, where high strength is imagined to be essentially super-human, I would probably just give it a hard DC and keep the game moving.

The last thing I'd want to to do is create a system for it.

Have you considered all the evidence provided in this thread that such a feat is far from impossible IRL, much less with beings with greater strength than humans are capable of, potentially throwing characters that weigh as much as a medium dog or small child?

What I'm curious about here is *why*, even more than *what*. Why would the DC be high in a "less grounded" game?

Greg K · Apr 10, 2019

Hawk Diesel said:
A Goliath under the effects of an enlarge spell would 14'2" tall and weigh between 2,800 - 3,200 lbs.

This morning, I had started to respond to another post from doctorbadwolf in which he talked about gonzo. In that post, I mentioned gonzo being selective and each table drawing their own lines as to where it begins, I had also written that for a being the size of one of the larger giants or a titan, I would have no problem. Unfortunately, while I left the tab open while I left to run errands and visit my physician for a follow-up, I, accidentally, deleted the post while switching tabs just moments before responding to this post. So, under the circumstances that you describe, I would have no issue (other that my not including goliaths, enlarge spells. and potions/belts/girdles of giant strength when I run).

Jeff Carlsen · Apr 11, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
Have you considered all the evidence provided in this thread that such a feat is far from impossible IRL, much less with beings with greater strength than humans are capable of, potentially throwing characters that weigh as much as a medium dog or small child?

What I'm curious about here is *why*, even more than *what*. Why would the DC be high in a "less grounded" game?

As I said, it's all situational. Strength of the thrower, size of the person being thrown, and the distance could all play into it. But we have a good baseline. The world record is 17ft with a 130 lb. person.

The situation I imagine for this is attempting to throw someone over a pit. So you have to clear the pit to be successful.

So, 15 feet is clearly very difficult to pull off in ideal circumstances with practice. So, I'm comfortable calling that a DC 30 (Nearly Impossible). At 20 feet, it is impossible.

But, in a less grounded game, I'd be more generous. And if the thrown creature is small, even more so. That removes a couple levels of difficulty. Do, DC 20 (Hard) to clear 15 feet seems fine.

In the middle of a game, I probably wouldn't have recently looked at the world record for throwing a person. I have to go with my gut, based on what I've seen from strongman competitions (for a grounded game) or other fantasy. I honestly can't know what my answer would be at the time something like this came up. So I don't see the point of arguing it further.

My main point is to show how I would come up with a ruling as opposed to a system. Explain exactly what you're trying to accomplish and how, and only then can I rule on it.

doctorbadwolf · Apr 11, 2019

Jeff Carlsen said:
As I said, it's all situational. Strength of the thrower, size of the person being thrown, and the distance could all play into it. But we have a good baseline. The world record is 17ft with a 130 lb. person.

The situation I imagine for this is attempting to throw someone over a pit. So you have to clear the pit to be successful.

So, 15 feet is clearly very difficult to pull off in ideal circumstances with practice. So, I'm comfortable calling that a DC 30 (Nearly Impossible). At 20 feet, it is impossible.

But, in a less grounded game, I'd be more generous. And if the thrown creature is small, even more so. That removes a couple levels of difficulty. Do, DC 20 (Hard) to clear 15 feet seems fine.

In the middle of a game, I probably wouldn't have recently looked at the world record for throwing a person. I have to go with my gut, based on what I've seen from strongman competitions (for a grounded game) or other fantasy. I honestly can't know what my answer would be at the time something like this came up. So I don't see the point of arguing it further.

My main point is to show how I would come up with a ruling as opposed to a system. Explain exactly what you're trying to accomplish and how, and only then can I rule on it.

What I’m trying to get at, is that “ruling on the fly” has certain weaknesses, bc people have very different interpretations of the world, and it’s thus worthwhile to at least explore ways of adjudicating types of attempted actions ahead of time.

To me, a DC 30 to do something real humans can do is much too high. ideal circumstances, sure, but the guy also wasn’t a top ranked strong man, and he wasn’t the hero of a story known for being very strong.

I’d bet hundreds of dollars that Hafthor “The Mountain” Björnsson could throw someone further. Also, I’d wager that Mr Guinness record holder could launch a competitive gymnast who he’d practiced the maneuver with further using a cooperative technique. Ie, running start, thrower in a power squat with hands in front, using an over-the-head motion from squat to full extension to boost the gymnast’s leap like a springboard.

But either way, it’s well within the bounds of normal fantasy fiction.

So, stuff like this is why I challenge the notion of just ruling on the spot. Bc oftentimes, we are much more prone to restriction with on the spot rulings than the game is intended to be, or than we would be if we came up with at least a framework ahead of time. Perhaps you’d be giving that “DC 30 might as well say no” difficulty either way, but IME most DMs are much less lenient in the moment than they are ahead of time bc they’re fun shy about unbalancing the game.