How do YOU handle a Fastball Special, and other team manuevers?

[doctorbadwolf]

Ah, gotcha.
I understand that, I do. But in 5E this difference of expression should be simple and attempt to change as little as possible. Doing a flying spin-kick into the baddie's face may call for an Acrobatics check, or a Jump check. But beyond that, all you have really done is moved and then hit something. Nothing about what you're doing as fundamentally changed, just the way you're describing it.

I DONT think every form of moment and every style of attack needs its own unique mechanical expression. I think good "flavor text" can make worlds of difference between two things that are fundamentally the same.

If it isn’t going to have different outcomes, it shouldn’t involve an additional roll.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

In order to make a ruling, I need to know what the players are specifically trying to accomplish and have a sense of the tone of my game.

In the X-men comics, a fastball special happens because Wolverine is only effective at close range, and needs to get to where he can be effective, for example on top of a sentinel. Colossus (who has super-human strength) throws Wolverine (notoriously short) at a specific target that he couldn't reach on his own quickly.

If my D&D game wasn't very grounded tonally, and I had a fighter with a belt of giant strength trying to throw a halfling onto a dragon, I might allow it. In that case, the thrower makes a DC 20 Athletics check. Success means the halfling lands on the dragon and can attack. Failure means the halfling falls short, the exact details of which I'd make up on the spot.

A specific objective, a description of how they want to accomplish it, and a ruling.

That's it. It's a one-off thing.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

In order to make a ruling, I need to know what the players are specifically trying to accomplish and have a sense of the tone of my game.

In the X-men comics, a fastball special happens because Wolverine is only effective at close range, and needs to get to where he can be effective, for example on top of a sentinel. Colossus (who has super-human strength) throws Wolverine (notoriously short) at a specific target that he couldn't reach on his own quickly.

If my D&D game wasn't very grounded tonally, and I had a fighter with a belt of giant strength trying to throw a halfling onto a dragon, I might allow it. In that case, the thrower makes a DC 20 Athletics check. Success means the halfling lands on the dragon and can attack. Failure means the halfling falls short, the exact details of which I'd make up on the spot.

A specific objective, a description of how they want to accomplish it, and a ruling.

That's it. It's a one-off thing.

What about non comic book distances, like discussed in the thread? 15-30 feet, for instance.

 

[Guest 6801328]

1. I'm not sure I'd take the world record for human tossing, and conclude that every character with a 15 strength (which is usually/often a first level character's second highest score) can replicate it.

2. In order to combine character A's throwing ability with character B's jumping ability, A would have to throw B in such a way that B could push against A with his legs while being thrown, with as much efficiency as if he were just jumping, without pushing A backward (c.f. Newton). I'm having trouble visualizing what that would even look like.

3. Overall it's so ridiculous that I think you have to fall back on an implication of what an earlier poster said: if you think martial characters should be able to do stuff as fantastical as caster characters do, then just go for it and don't worry about making it logical or realistic. I wouldn't require a complicated formula, though. Just double the distance or something and call it a day.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

1. I'm not sure I'd take the world record for human tossing, and conclude that every character with a 15 strength (which is usually/often a first level character's second highest score) can replicate it.

2. In order to combine character A's throwing ability with character B's jumping ability, A would have to throw B in such a way that B could push against A with his legs while being thrown, with as much efficiency as if he were just jumping, without pushing A backward (c.f. Newton). I'm having trouble visualizing what that would even look like.

3. Overall it's so ridiculous that I think you have to fall back on an implication of what an earlier poster said: if you think martial characters should be able to do stuff as fantastical as caster characters do, then just go for it and don't worry about making it logical or realistic. I wouldn't require a complicated formula, though. Just double the distance or something and call it a day.

I'm genuinely entertained by the notion that throwing someone 20-30 feet is even in the ballpark of what casters can do.

Also, in what world do most (implied by "usually") characters have strength as their second highest stat?

Anyway, most people IRL can't jump 15 feet reliably, and definitely can't do so while carrying any significant amount of gear, and yet a 15 strength character can do it all day, with no roll.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Also, in what world do most (implied by "usually") characters have strength as their second highest stat?

Uh...that wasn't my point. Was just saying that a 15+ in an attribute is so common as to not even be noteworthy. So to say that a 15+ strength character should be able to do what a world-record-holder can do is...well, not how I figure those things.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Uh...that wasn't my point. Was just saying that a 15+ in an attribute is so common as to not even be noteworthy. So to say that a 15+ strength character should be able to do what a world-record-holder can do is...well, not how I figure those things.

Technically, a character with 15 strength can take 225 lbs, lift it over their head, and move at a normal speed, walk up stairs, ect. At my strongest as a collegiate athlete, I could military press 275 lbs, but I couldn't hold it up for more than a few seconds, let alone casually move around while holding up all that weight without hurting myself. Even professional bodybuilders and strongmen would be hard pressed to hold that much weight over their head and move around for long, and even then it would be with limited mobility and still a high risk of injury.

So I think it is reasonable to think that a character with 15 strength is quite a bit stronger than even most professional strongman competitors. Just because this level of strength is common among PCs does not mean it is analogous to being common compared to a real world average. This is a sampling bias. It would be like averaging the lifting ability of only Olympic power lifters, and assuming this average applies to everyone. What is average within one group can be exceptional within a larger group.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Uh...that wasn't my point. Was just saying that a 15+ in an attribute is so common as to not even be noteworthy. So to say that a 15+ strength character should be able to do what a world-record-holder can do is...well, not how I figure those things.

Dude isn’t even in the top tier of strong men for his generation, so far as I could find. Hafthor “The Mountain” whathisname and other top tier strong men just don’t spend their time practicing throwing dudes to break weird Guinness records.

But beyond that, again, a 15 strength character can jump 15 feet with no trouble, in full kit. That’s the kind of physicality that 5e dnd gives characters with that level of strength.

But hey, my mind is still reeling from the suggestion that throwing a halfling 30 feet at an enemy is comparably fantastical to spells.

 

[Greg K]

Why? Nothing wrong with enjoying or not enjoying what you enjoy or don't enjoy, just curious. Especially in the case of big races like goliaths and firbolgs throwing small races...this is completely realistic. Like, the guy who has the record for throwing another guy threw a 130lb dude 17 1/2 feet, and he isn't even the strongest guy in the world. Is it just a situation where it feels gonzo to you, even if it is actually realistic, or is it something else?

That guy throwing the 130lb due is not throwing him as a fastball special. The guy being thrown is wearing a harness. The thrower is grabbing him by one strap at the shoulders and another strap near the butt or crotch. The thrower has to spin his body to build up momentum before throwing the guy. The guy thrown spins horizontally and uncontrollably a couple of times before hitting the ground and bounces.

As for the 52lb world record that someone mentioned from the Highland Games, that was a kettle ball being thrown which is smaller and more aerodynamic than a person. Again, the guy did not throw like a baseball or football, he grabbed it by the handle and had to spin around (if I recall correctly, two or three times) to build up momentum before releasing it. If throwing a person, I think you are going to get the same kind of spin as with the guy 130lb guy.
Finally, to do a fastball special, I see the same issue that someone else had stated (I think it was Elfcrusher).

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Yea, but last time I checked, I couldn't turn invisible, fly, or cause people to freeze at my command. Yet relatively low level spellcasters can achieve these feats. We aren't talking what is possible in our actual reality. We are talking about feats of strength that heroic characters we play could achieve in a fictional universe. I don't understand why people are able to suspend disbelief when it comes to spellcasters casting spells, but for some reason, a strong person throwing another person as part of a maneuver or attack for some reason breaks immersion.

No one would blink an eye if we were discussing this using a spell like telekinesis. But substitute a spell for a fantasy-level strongman, and suddenly the whole game seems to crumble.