Star Wars IX: The Rise of Skywalker Trailer

Mercurius · Apr 21, 2019

I am not suggesting that SW does away with Light vs. Dark, but that it reimagines it as not so dualistic, not so absolute. Furthermore, what is "light" can change, and with it what is "dark" in relation to it. I'm not talking about extreme relativism, but some degree of relativism, which is an intrinsic aspect of the Taoist philosophy that partially inspired Lucas's idea of the Force.

Taoist philosophy would likely hold that "aberrations" are just extreme variations of Nature, and ultimately "natural" expressions of it. "Evil," in this sense, isn't as much what is unnatural, but what is in resistance to the flow of Nature. It is egotism - fighting against the flow (Force). In that sense it could be argued that the Jedi fall short of a "true" Taoist philosophy. The are more "in the flow" than the Sith, but still fall short. So we could imagine a Skywalker order that recognizes the necessity of both Light and Dark. If I remember correctly, we get glimmers of this from Yoda and Luke.

doctorbadwolf · Apr 21, 2019

Mercurius said:
I am not suggesting that SW does away with Light vs. Dark, but that it reimagines it as not so dualistic, not so absolute. Furthermore, what is "light" can change, and with it what is "dark" in relation to it. I'm not talking about extreme relativism, but some degree of relativism, which is an intrinsic aspect of the Taoist philosophy that partially inspired Lucas's idea of the Force.

Taoist philosophy would likely hold that "aberrations" are just extreme variations of Nature, and ultimately "natural" expressions of it. "Evil," in this sense, isn't as much what is unnatural, but what is in resistance to the flow of Nature. It is egotism - fighting against the flow (Force). In that sense it could be argued that the Jedi fall short of a "true" Taoist philosophy. The are more "in the flow" than the Sith, but still fall short. So we could imagine a Skywalker order that recognizes the necessity of both Light and Dark. If I remember correctly, we get glimmers of this from Yoda and Luke.

Right, that’s precisely what I don’t want in Star Wars.

GreyLord · Apr 21, 2019

I'm still thinking (said this before I think) Palpatine is dead. It's the holocron (I believe it was hinted at previously) which has some sort of connection to Palpatine (or perhaps remnants like a ghost) and it is this holocron which initially started the corruption of Kylo Ren in the first place.

It appears though, that Kylo and Rey may team up in this one from the appearances of the teaser.

If so, it wouldn't surprise me if Kylo faces of with some of the Knights of Ren or something to that effect.

I DO hope the spoilers about them simply being on a bro quest to broadcast a transmission of Luke Skywalker isn't really what the entire plot of the movie revolves around though.

I'd think with the hints it would be more about dealing with the Knights of Ren (whom we haven't really seen up to now, but they have to be somewhere and I'd imagine they would have been part of the first order as well...if Kylo tried to take charge I imagine they'd have a thing or two to say about that eventually) and the First Order with them trying to lead instead of Kylo.

No idea on my part, but I'm that theory about a broadcast sounds more like some fanmade theory than real (or at least I hope it's fan made up rather than actual).

MarkB · Apr 21, 2019

I seem to recall that George Lucas has mentioned in interviews that he never saw the Force as being a balance between light and dark - the""light side" of the Force was never mentioned in either the original trilogy or the prequels.

Instead, there was "the Force" and "the dark side of the Force". When the prophecy of the Chosen One talks about bringing balance to the Force, it doesn't mean a balance between light and dark - it means removing the unbalancing influence of the Dark Side to leave only the Force.

Satyrn · Apr 21, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
Right, that’s precisely what I don’t want in Star Wars.

Aye! I want a Star Wars where after Han Solo says "Light, dark, I'm the guy the with the blaster" he still joins the good guys.

pukunui · Apr 21, 2019

[MENTION=40176]MarkB[/MENTION]: Yes, George likened the dark side to a cancer and balance meant getting rid of it, not making it even with the “light side”. That was an EU concept which, unfortunately, seems to have become the official stance under Disney. The Rebels cartoon hinted at that a number of times. And in the new movies, we got Leia in TFA telling Han she could sense that there was still “light” in their son rather than “good”. That irked me. And then Luke in TLJ tells Rey that the Force was comprised of both light and dark, and Snoke talks about how the light side has raised a champion (Rey) to counter his dark side champion (Kylo). Sigh ...

Mercurius · Apr 22, 2019

MarkB said:
I seem to recall that George Lucas has mentioned in interviews that he never saw the Force as being a balance between light and dark - the""light side" of the Force was never mentioned in either the original trilogy or the prequels.

Instead, there was "the Force" and "the dark side of the Force". When the prophecy of the Chosen One talks about bringing balance to the Force, it doesn't mean a balance between light and dark - it means removing the unbalancing influence of the Dark Side to leave only the Force.

On one hand that could be viewed as a matter of semantics. On the other, I think Lucas--or your take of him--is pointing to a crucial subtlety that aligns with Taoist philosophy. The Force (or Tao) isn't inherently "good" or "evil". It just is. "Balance" isn't as much a stasis between good and evil as it is a free flow, whereas the "Dark Side" would be the attempt to control it, to force it...yes, to force the Force

Anyhow, maybe now's a good time to insert some Merlin wisdom:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxXmoWkQhBI

Mercurius · Apr 22, 2019

pukunui said:
[MENTION=40176]MarkB[/MENTION]: Yes, George likened the dark side to a cancer and balance meant getting rid of it, not making it even with the “light side”. That was an EU concept which, unfortunately, seems to have become the official stance under Disney. The Rebels cartoon hinted at that a number of times. And in the new movies, we got Leia in TFA telling Han she could sense that there was still “light” in their son rather than “good”. That irked me. And then Luke in TLJ tells Rey that the Force was comprised of both light and dark, and Snoke talks about how the light side has raised a champion (Rey) to counter his dark side champion (Kylo). Sigh ...

Here's a thought. Maybe part of the deception of the Sith is that there needs to be "dark vs light", evil vs good. It is to further the duality, to push everyone into this or that side (Sort of like the current cultural-political landscape!)

On the other hand, I would think it a rather naive view to hope that a Force--and universe--without the Dark Side would ever be fully possible, at least in a permanent way. Balance might be restored for a time, but will inevitably go out of whack again. The Indian yuga cycles illustrates this quite well and it is echoed through many mythologies and is, I think, intrinsic to the human condition on Earth, at least from a mythological perspective. There's a "Golden Age" but an inevitable Fall, and then through long toil--the Hero's Journey--we rise up again and create a new Golden Age...which can only ever be impermanent and will lead to another Fall, etc.

Its sort of like the delight a child takes in doing something dangerous and scary, like a rollercoaster. When the ordeal is over there's a brief pause, which the adult parent experiences as a kind of micro-Golden Age, and then child says "Let's do it again!"

GreyLord · Apr 22, 2019

The way that the sequel trilogy takes it, I think is that the idea is that there is balance between force users.

Annakin, in that way, really did finally bring balance to the force, as long as you don't look at all the extraneous material found in anything but the movies themselves.

When he did the Jedi Purge and it was Him and the Emperor on the Dark Side and Yoda and Obi-Wan on the light side. When Luke first comes to knowledge of the Force, Obi-Wan dies.

For that while, the Force is balanced between light and dark in the new ST way of seeing things.

It is explained in TLJ thus, that when one side rises, the other raises someone else to match it. Thus, the idea probably is that Snoke came into being because Luke was there, and since the Force had finally been balanced, Luke being Lightside needed a Dark Side user to balance it out. Thus, Kylo's balance would be Rey.

The idea Luke expressed in TLJ would be then, that as long as there are those on the one side of the Force, now that it is balanced, there will always be those on the other side. His idea is that if the Jedi were to end, so would the Dark side force users.

That probably doesn't work really with what Lucas envisioned or his other material (as seen in the Clone wars and definitely what is seen in Rebels, but works with the movie continuity and seems to be what Snoke explains in TLJ). Lucas (who has changed his mind several times as he said one thing in the past and then something different later on in various interviews) seems to have originally based the Force off a similar idea as Buddhism's relationship with Zen. It is the idea of balance within the individual, with unbalance being excessively giving into emotion or one side of cravings or other things. Thus, the idea that the force itself is balanced, but the Dark side is an unbalanced force. To balance it would be to do away with the Dark side (as Vader eventually did).

BUT, under Disney I think their interpretation is more akin to the idea of balance being between the light and the dark. Each needing the other in order to exist. It's more of a Yin/Yang than a middle road type idea. Thus, if only one side has a Force user, then the force will make another arise on the other side now that it is balanced.

I think that's how TLJ explains it and that's sort of the explanation also of how Snoke actually exists now.